Guilty Pleasures

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Gwyneth M905
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Hooray for Bollywood

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:13 am

Ezra Lb. wrote:So...do they ever have honest to Ganesh SEX scenes in these movies (with naked sweaty skin) or is it just a come-on?


Not as such, but they manage to heat up the screen nevertheless. There's a *lot* more explicit maleness, or masculinity or, hell "straight" guys with their shirts off or open singing or flirting with girls/women.

The bed scenes tend to be more like those from 1940's movies--characters will end up in funny situations where they are mistaken for married couples and have to share a bedroom, etc.

So the answer is no, BUT...what they do show is pretty damn hot...check out Shah Ruhk Khan in "Om Shanti Om" performing the song "Dard-E-Disco" (The Pain of Disco). see below
The movie Salaam Namaste was pretty frank in its depiction of a couple living together without being married--and was condemned, so, yeah, sex scenes are more implied, and kissing is usually "nuzzling" rather than mouth to mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp7iTtlOTMA

And here are the lyrics: (translated from Hindi) (Steve, I'm not sure if translating these is a problem or not?)
The Pain of Disco

That beauty, white fairy
Did some sort of magic
Took the sleep from these eyes
The heart is full of restlessness

Woe is me, I am lost and how many people can I tell

In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
The pain of disco, the pain of disco

The season of beauty it is in my heart
On me it is the season of colours
What a feeling it is in my dreams
What can I say about what I have?
The feeling in my dreams, stung so badly
So I roam in London, Paris, New York, L.A., San Francisco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
The pain of disco, the pain of disco

Every moment I had the wish to see my dreams come true
Every moment she took over me
When she dropped and rained on to me
When she rained I became desperate
Then suddenly I was alone
My lover
Broke me and left me
On the twenty-sixth of the previous month
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
The pain of disco, the pain of disco

That beauty, white fairy
Did some sort of magic
Took the sleep from these eyes
The heart is full of restlessness

Woe is me, I am lost and how many people can I tell

In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
In my heart is the pain of disco, the pain of disco, the pain of disco
The pain of disco, the pain of disco
I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi Knight, the same as my Father.
STAR WARS (1977)

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby Moderator » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:16 am

(Contrary to popular belief, Disco never died. It simply went on a world tour.)
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby David Loftus » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:52 am

Brings to mine a New Yorker cartoon I saw many years ago. A young man is carrying a boom box that is pounding "Love me with your body, disco baby . . . Love me with your body, disco baby . . . Love me with your body, disco baby . . . " and a schlubby businessman walking the other direction is thinking to himself: "They're writing songs of love, but not for me."
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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FrankChurch
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:29 pm

India is pretty conservative.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:44 pm

There's a *lot* more explicit maleness, or masculinity or, hell "straight" guys with their shirts off or open singing or flirting with girls/women.

Which of course leads naturally to the question as to how many of these pretty men are actually gay?


India is pretty conservative.

Maybe sure but remember this is also a culture which could produce the temples at Konarak and Khajuraho that frankly depict eroticism as part of religious expression. Temples dedicated to Lord Shiva use the lingam as a primary symbol of the divine. I suppose the Muslims would be more skittish about such things than the Hindus.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Gwyneth M905
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Sexuality and Indian Movies

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:30 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:There's a *lot* more explicit maleness, or masculinity or, hell "straight" guys with their shirts off or open singing or flirting with girls/women.

Which of course leads naturally to the question as to how many of these pretty men are actually gay?


Weeell, they're all married with children, but...once again, this is like Hollywood in the 1940's--with an extra dose of cultural conditioning of the importance of offspring stirred into the mix. I've heard rumors that SRK and Abisheck Bachchan are gay, but that was from an unreliable source. The former is married to his "childhood sweetheart" whom he had to woo over three years before her parents would consent, since Shah Rukh Khan is Muslim and Gauri is (was?) Hindu. Abishek Bachchan is married to the amazingly beautiful diva Aishwarya Rai, but by all accounts, it's a rocky ride.
(OK, I've been outed as a Bollywood gossip fiend. :P )


India is pretty conservative.

Ezra Lb. wrote:Maybe sure but remember this is also a culture which could produce the temples at Konarak and Khajuraho that frankly depict eroticism as part of religious expression. Temples dedicated to Lord Shiva use the lingam as a primary symbol of the divine.


Great point, Ezra! It's part of what makes these movies so interesting: the implication of incredible erotic experience without resorting to the sex scenes that American, French, or British movies do. (I'm trying to avoid saying "Western" movies.)

Ezra Lb. wrote:I suppose the Muslims would be more skittish about such things than the Hindus.


Actually eroticism and erotic pleasure is very much a part of Muslim culture and life--but strictly within the bonds of marriage. Remember that the classic "Perfumed Garden of the Sheik Naf-Zawi" was Muslim, and it is in the Qur'an that a woman may divorce her husband if he repeatedly denies her sexual gratification. If I remember correctly, there is a hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) that the husband should bring the wife to orgasm first, before himself. Anal sex is a big no-no, which is one of the reasons why there is such a prohibition against homosexuality, but oral (so long as the man doesn't make the woman swallow) is fine.

I think your actual point was about movies, not real life though :), and yes, you are right, the depiction of images is, I believe, either makruh or downright haram. Things have changed though, and yes, people in the Gulf States and throughout the world (after all, there are two billion, 3 million Muslims today, scattered all over the world), have TV, VCR's DVD's, iPods, and watch a LOT of movies. Apparently in the Gulf States, these are strictly censored and that leads to some inadvertent, and highly funny jump cuts.

Islam in India has historically been much more inclusive, Sufi-istic, and adaptable (OK, OK, Partition notwithstanding also the 1992(?) riots and counter riots.) I base this statement by contrasting it with the Wahabi sect's practices in Saudi Arabia. The most popular actor, probably in the world, Shah Rukh Khan--is Muslim. And he's certainly done his share of HAWT :wink: nuzzling scenes. Corney, but hey, I'm a chick so I love the corny romantic stuff that doesn't cut to the sweaty hard core stuff.

So, I would venture a hypothesis that Indian Muslims aren't bothered by the steamy scenes in the Bollywood movies; while the folks in the Gulf States have to pretend that they are, and have them censored out.
I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi Knight, the same as my Father.
STAR WARS (1977)

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby NeonMosfet » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:00 pm

They are not gay in the traditional sense. They all marry. The wife is merely a cogenitor of sorts. A detatched womb. As soon as she has produced the requisite number of heirs, she has out lived her usefulness, read sutee. In Moslem countries, it is more so. The men are gay by American standards, because one would not be friends with an incubating unit. These persons are not even slaves. Slaves have something called function. These are appliances, used, and completely disposable. A Boy and his Dog; A Man and his Afghan.
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:30 pm

In the "West" homosexuals are active in the arts in numbers far out of proportion to their presence in the general population. I'm just assuming that the same would be true in the "East".

I'm in no position to judge the mores of another culture for the simple fact that I was raised in one of the most repressive cultures possible, rural Southern Baptist fundamentalism. I was taught that all natural desires are sinful. Just to look at a beautiful woman and to feel the normal biological urges was in and of itself sinful. Lust. And when you've had this stuff drilled into you from birth it's not possible to just slough it off.

Maybe when you read some of my anti-religious comments over at the other thread you'll understand this issue is not just intellectual to me because I've had to spend half my life getting this evil sick pathological shit out of my head.

One of the things that has helped liberate me from my upbringing is seeing that other cultures exist and that there are other ways of seeing that are, shall we say less poisonous than my own. I love the idea of a temple dedicated to sex and a philosophy that teaches one can attain enlightenment through sex. Believe me there are much worse things one can worship than the body of a lover. And what a glorious altar! And what a delicious shrine!
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby reddragon70 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:30 pm

If sex in any form is regarded as a guilty pleasure then there is someone way wrong with the world. Or at least that persons view of it. Be they gay or heterosexual, there should be no guilt attached. Its the main biological imperative after all (although it may never produce children the drive remains for the gay community I am sure).

As you say "Faith" creates guilt. Other faiths have been more understanding of human sexuality than chirstianity has been over the centuries. Maybe one day that will change but not, I suspect, in our lifetimes.

One point though, Japanese culture is not based on guilt. Theirs is bsaed on the concept of "shame". Very different. I sometimes wonder if their way is better than ours. It has always made a lot more sense to me than the observations I have made of western culture.

So can I add to my list of guilty pleasures..... All things Japanese.

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:52 pm

reddragon70 wrote:So can I add to my list of guilty pleasures..... All things Japanese.


Manga, fugu, saki, and "Shall We Dance?" (the original) anyone? :D
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:26 pm

Fugu--Coulter in Japanese.

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby reddragon70 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:13 am

I'll take you up on the Sake, really love the stuff. Sadly its damned hard to find where I live.

Manga I can take or leave to be honest but I do love the style of the artwork. Mind you with the Japanese alphabet its not a wonder they have such wonderful artists really.

One day though I intend to travel to Japan and spend my entire holiday at the Sumo Basho. I love sumo. The ceremony and the battle. I am usually pretty good at telling who will win from the ceremony before the bout too. So I wouldnt advise taking any wagers frome me ;)

Most of all I would just love to take in the whole cultural experience.

A long time ago, when I was but a mere child, my father had a very nice Japanese gentleman working in his work. That was Glasgow University in the Naval Architecture department. He was a fascinating man by the name of Mr Kitigawa. At the time he was pretty old and he related a lot of stories to my dad and myself about his youth. He actually trained to be a kamakazi pilot but the war ended before his training was complete. Also every year he would send the most beautiful christmas cards to my family, lovely japanese art handpainted onto silk. Trully wonderful. Sadly I believe he must be dead now as the cards stopped coming many years ago. This one man in a lot of ways inspired my fascination with Japan and its been a life long passion every since.

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:59 am

reddragon70 wrote:So can I add to my list of guilty pleasures..... All things Japanese.


Well.
Not ALL things.

Hara kiri, for example. Not so fun.

(Lived in Yokosuka, Japan for a year as a very little boy -- maybe 5? Would love to go back.)
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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby David Loftus » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:04 am

> Hara kiri, for example

GREAT 1962 Kobayashi film, though. And not really a guilty pleasure or fun so much as an honorable act . . . in context.

May I also put in a good word for Kurosawa, raku, and bunraku?
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Re: Guilty Pleasures

Postby reddragon70 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:11 pm

Hmmmmm. Yojimbo is in fact one of my favourite films. And I love The Hidden Fortress (did you ever notice how similar the whole story is to Star Wars?). One of these days I am going to track down all of Akira Kurosawa's films and have a huge marathon movie session. Would need some industrial sized popcorn though.... Salted not sweet (perhaps another guilty pleasure there..... salted popcorn.)


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