"Israel!" "Is Not!"

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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markabaddon
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby markabaddon » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:18 am

Bringing the subject back off my least favorite troll (and Barber I will keep my word to you, but I might suggest putting this creature on a leash, his irrationality is starting to affect everyone around him), here is an excellent article about the Israeli legislation that so sickens me:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/19 ... g-to-spli/

There are some deeper implications here that could affect me personally. The article discusses how the son of a convert was denied the ability to marry in Israel, even though he was serving in the IDF. While this is not a factor for me (I am of the tribe of Levite and can trace my ancestry back to Moses' brother Aaron), my ex-wife was the daughter of a convert. Even worse, that did not "stick" and my ex-demon in law went back to catholicsm after she divorced my ex's dad. Does this mean my kdis could be denied citizenship in Israel or the ability to be married there, shoudl they choose to one day? Even more, could they be considered not Jews because of their maternal grandmother?

There will be one hell of a fight within Judaism if this idiocy passes, with a possibility (remote but still there) of a reformation type schism between Israel and the rest of the world's Jews, especially in America
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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FrankChurch
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:31 am

I do know that they all have been critical of arab crimes in Israel, but what you don't like is the fact that they show the context of why the arabs do attack Israel. We all live in the real world here. If you collectively punish a people don't be surprised that they may fight back in violent ways.

We cannot allow one side to use violence and be surprise the ball doesn't flow into the other's court.

The Goldstone report did condemn arab violence, calling it a crime. Hamas rejected it, as did Israel. Goldstone had the temerity to say that the Israeli crimes were worse and the arab crimes came from the occupation and years of collective punishment. In some ways slow rejections of a people's humanity is worse than just putting a gun to their heads.

I also didn't mention that the Likud party platform is to reject the reality of a Palestinian state.

Egypt is a criminal state, so is Saudi Arabia, so is North Korea. This is so obvious it is boring.

Let's never forget that arabs are of the semitic languages as well.

-------------

Ezra calls Venezuela a criminal state, so I will start accusing him of being anti-latin American.

Just kidding Ezra.

-----------

Give me a red button and I will gladly kill every nazi on the planet. Global family we be. Racism is an intolerable torque of the soul.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Whoops.

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FinderDoug
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby FinderDoug » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:40 pm

Before I finally filter you out of my view, Frank, one final set of corrections for your 'scholarship'.

The BBC world poll was done on the most popular and unpopular countries in the world.


No, it wasn't. From the first page of the poll results document from the BBC: "The survey, conducted by GlobeScan/PIPA among more than 29,000 adults, asked respondents to say whether they considered the influence of different countries in the world to be mostly positive or mostly negative." The perception of a country's influence is different from "Do you like me, check yes or no." So from the first sentence, you're distorting truth to suite your argument.

Iran was the lowest rated, but Israel, dear Israel, is at nineteen percent! Right up there with Iran and North Korea.


This is accurate, insofar as the numbers go, though again - on average, 19% of the people surveyed believe Israel has a positive influence on the world - not that Israel is only popular with 19% of the world, which is what you assert. But you also grossly oversimplify numbers, reactions and averages and ignore methodology, which the hallmark of biased reporting. Also, you can toss off the hated nations in the lumping, but do mention that next up on the 'favorable' list is Russia. Also, there's some regional/geographical proximity skewing as well - Mexico gives the US a whopping 13% positive rating. I'd also question the sample size, but that's a general argument.

The US is at 49 percent, while Germany is the most popular


Half-right. Go back and reread. 46 percent believe the US has a positive influence, compared to 34 percent who feel we have a negative influence. Not 49.

This is a world wide poll. You know this poll will not be mentioned.


The BBC has done this poll every year since 2005 and this is the first I believe you've mentioned it; but if it's not mentioned, one suspects it has less to do with some conspiracy to bury the truth, which is what you're inferring, and more because its newsworthiness is going to vary from place to place. I don't see why Israel wouldn't mention it - overall, their unfavorable rating is down 4 points on average from last year, and dropped from 67% to 47% in Australia. They're gaining ground India and Canada are losing. (I blame Canadian handling of the Olympics.)

Unless they have the stones to say that the entire world is anti-semitic.


"They"? You mean who, exactly? Israelis? Those of the Jewish faith? Some ill-defined mass of media? That's a wide brush you're painting with that ill-defined pronoun. Waaaay too close to "those people" for my taste.

And thus endeth my interest. Welcome to the phpBB user filter, Francis. To paraphrase Charles Manson, I have X'd you from my world. And since I can't see you anymore, use the remaining time you have at the library today before it closes jousting others who can.

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Steve Evil
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:17 pm




Sounds disturbingly like purity to me. I've heard it said that the representative system in Israel (kinda similar to Australia's, innit?) lends itself to coalition governments, which allow fringe parties power out of proportion to their numbers.

Here's one from our dear friend Hitchens. US tax benefits to the settler movement:

http://www.slate.com/id/2260231/

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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:27 pm

Any group that insists I cowtow to their ethos before I can be considered "legit" is the first group which will never have my membership.

This is why I'm not really "organized" in my religion.

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FrankChurch
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:29 pm

I went with the BBC poll numbers from the Huffington Post which showed the numbers. I didn't go to the BBC site. I read the article and it does make my point that the world sees Israel in a bad light. This is not surprising since the flotilla attack and the Gaza war turned the world upside down.

I didn't look at the methodology, which was on the BBC site, not that it made any difference, since my point was about Israel's low numbers. I am quite sure Israel gets higher marks in the west, but that's about something else. It begins with a p.

We should be more concerned with the fact that Andrew Breitbart can scare Obama to fire a black women at the USDA from a doctored video tape.

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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:32 pm

Okay, kids. I'll say it:

Frank: What Breitbart does with videotape, you frequently do with international relations and politics.

As Breitbart might himself point out, if he were literate enough: "Calleth not the kettle black when you yourself are looking potlike of complexion."
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markabaddon
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby markabaddon » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:36 pm

Mr. Evil, "purity" would be a good way to decribe this bill. When I first told my Dad about it, he said it sounded similar to the Nazi's program of eugenics. Not a completely inaccurate comparison. The Knesset can only function through coalitions, so you are correct, that style of government does tend to allow fringe groups a larger influence, as many of these coalitions are precarious at best and to lose any members could bring down the entire group.

Barber, I would agree with that assessment, which is one of the reasons why I have always been proud to be a Jew. This type of, for lack of a better term, discrimination, has shaken my faith in some key rabbinical leaders greatly. I am very glad that Rabbi Morris Allen, my own rabbi, is horrified by this law

Also, just as an FYI, I must thank my friend Doug for informing me that a posts from an individual can be blocked. I had not realized that was possible but have decided to also X out from my electronic existence our favorite troll
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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FrankChurch
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:42 pm

Barber, I don't know if that's fair, since--once again, I sometimes use whole statements from other writers to test the waters.

Michael Moore is given the same treatment, beyond his vast array of sources on his site.

I sometimes rush posts, which is an internet disease, to be sure.

Breitbart and his ilk lie knowing they are lying, while I go with the best sources I can find.

Doesn't mean I am an evil person.

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FrankChurch
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:45 pm

Lordy, doth skin is see-through.

Douglas Harrison
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Douglas Harrison » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:21 pm

markabaddon wrote:Also, just as an FYI, I must thank my friend Doug for informing me that a posts from an individual can be blocked. I had not realized that was possible but have decided to also X out from my electronic existence our favorite troll

I, too, am going to filter out Frank's posts. I tried ignoring him for a while, but I believe I need some help.

D.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:46 pm

*falling at Finder Doug's feet*

[b]THANK YOU!!!!!!![/b]

Now I don't have to worry about the few working brain cels I have left being wastede on trying to not get so upset at our resident shit stirrer!

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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:46 pm

C'mon guys. You all filter out Frank and I'm going to be posting some seriously "WTF" Non-sequitors.
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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:09 pm

Mark

Before making serious comments on the article you recently posted, may I ask you a question?

Eugenics was looking to totally remove entire segments of the world's population from existence. Now I'll admit that I didn't read the entire article, but what I did read just said that the Rabi on the Knesset just weren't willing to admit that converts were truly Jewish.

Explain to me how those two things are the same?

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Re: "Israel!" "Is Not!"

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:52 pm

Don't worry Frank I'll always be ready to respond.

:wink:
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