Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:21 pm

Frank having universal health-care or a single payer health system doesn't make you a socialist.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

Gwyneth M905
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More moronitis flatulence

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:24 pm

From the people who can't tell the difference between socialism and nationalization anyway, and would rather be grilling brats outdoors...

Ezra Lb. wrote:Steve Evil asketh

How does Socialized Medicine or Universal Healthcare or (whatever its called) limit freedom?
Precisely! That's always my first question.

Am I to understand that Freedom is defined strictly as consumer choice?
Precisely! Freedom in America has been reduced to being able to choose between 14 brands of pork-n-beans.

I overheard this at work today from a group sitting around a cafeteria table discussing health-care. "People in those socialist countries think health-care is a right!" spoken in the same tone as if you substituted "child molestation is a right". :( :?


Well folks, since today is "my day for dissing my FB friends", here is a screed from a FB exchange I had with a former elementary, middle, and high school classmate in Burlington, Iowa:

Mike Lipsey would like someone to show him where the Constitution permits the government to provide universal insurance.
September 3 at 5:13pm

Mari-Lynn Gwyneth Guest
The Preamble: "...promote the general welfare..."
In general, Mike, the same place it allows for the government to provide universal police, fire, and education. Universal health care for citizens is promoting the general welfare just as much as those other three.
September 3 at 5:18pm · Delete

Mike Lipsey
So, would that be Article I, II or III?
September 3 at 5:19pm

Mari-Lynn Gwyneth Guest
The Ninth Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Health care is a positive right. As such it has to be privileged with social capabilities, investments, money and education. Positive Rights require thresholds to be acquired. A society without a right to education can't afford universal health care. A society without democracy probably can't produce integral social services. Even negative rights have to be privileged. To have the right to freedom a person must be able to own property, have liberty, and be able to use commons and acquire common needs. To be truly free, for example, a person has to be healthy.
September 3 at 6:08pm · Delete

Mike Lipsey
The 9th amendment protects unenumerated rights. It does not grant entitlements.
September 3 at 6:25pm

Mari-Lynn Gwyneth Guest
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not an entitlement, Mike, it's a guarantee.
September 3 at 6:30pm · Delete

Mari-Lynn Gwyneth Guest
Oh, and Article I, section 8 also.
September 3 at 6:30pm · Delete

Mike Lipsey
The commerce clause, based on the Federalist papers does not provide for this. If it did, such a broad interpretation of the "Commerce Clause" would render the 10th Amendment meaningless. Seeing as the 10th proceeded it, that clearly cannot be the intent.
September 3 at 6:43pm

Mari-Lynn Gwyneth Guest
It provides for fire, police and education, Mike.
September 3 at 6:45pm · Delete

Mike Lipsey
It actually provides for none of those. Only the "Living Document" advocates read these into it. All of these (with the exception of sheriffs) are allocated to the individual states. If you want health care for all, that is were to take it. To each individual state.
September 3 at 6:47pm

Mike Lipsey
Nothing in life is guaranteed other than death (and, apparently, taxes). Some things in life are essentials; including, but not limited to, air, water, food and shelter. No single person or government can guarantee these essentials. We must struggle to provide them for ourselves and those we love. Insurance is not an essential. Governments can only compel the extraction of taxes by threat. Compassion cannot be given under threat. Once a government chooses one to receive by extracting from another has eliminated compassion from the equation. The only thing left is compulsion.
September 3 at 6:54pm

John Borzillo
The oft mentioned, frequently forgotten part of the preamble would be the word "pursuit." It is right there staring the reader in the face. "Happiness" is an end to be pursued, not and end itself and is therefore not an unalienable right. It is the right of free people to pursue all that makes them happy - provided it is within the law. Whether he pursues it or not, as Mike said, there is no guarantee that he will attain it, because happiness is a subjective. What makes me happy does not make the next person happy, and so on. Unfortunately the constitution is not a living document as some would like to suggest and it fact it cannot be as there is only one such text in existence. That said, the context within with the constitution was written is ironically very similar to the discussion we are having at this time.
September 3 at 7:35pm

John Borzillo
Continued: The levying of unjustified tax upon a population not willing to pay for it. This is the major reason we broke from England - it was commerce driven make no mistake. Those of us who are paying our way, do not want to pay anymore, even if it would insure "happiness for all." And certainly not under coercion by government, whose job, once again, is only to insure that the the general population is not impeded when it comes to pursuing happiness. There is no guarantee of happiness in life and the idea that happiness is somehow a function o health care,f is simply foolish. If that argument holds true than I want my million dollars, because that would make me happy. Unfortunately that would be somewhere between where we are now and communism - just like universal health care. Bottom line, bleeding the taxpayer is why we broke from England. The current discussion is just one huge step backwards and would be better classified as backpedaling rather than "change."
September 3 at 7:52pm


So this is how the "other side" from the heartland of the MidWest thinks.
I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi Knight, the same as my Father.
STAR WARS (1977)

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:04 pm

Fascinating exchange, Gwyneth. I suppose it would be snarky of me to point out that these folks know just enough about their system of government to be dangerous. And has anybody but me noticed that their attitude towards the Constitution is the same as a fundamentalist christian's attitude towards the Bible? It fell out of the sky perfect for all time and all we can do is meticulously follow it literally! Of course they interpret it themselves all the time but when you point that out they claim it's not a living document! Never mind it was written in the 18th century and we're living in the 21st. (At least I think we are.)

The fallacy behind their thinking is that they define the "government" as something other than themselves. The people that work here in Area Code 202 are NOT the government. They work FOR the govt. The government is the people. And if the people wish to use the organized system of their representatives to establish a health system for themselves then that is our right. Our government was established by our community as a way to protect ourselves AS A COMMUNITY. This "every primate for themselves" philosophy is the opposite of freedom. Health-care is not a privilege to be attained by financial success, it's a right, a birthright, something we owe ourselves and each other as human beings.

But what makes me most angry is...these folks don't mind getting illegally wire-tapped and spyed upon. They don't mind when their telephone/internet service providers turn over their private information to the evil "government". They don't mind when this evil "government" tortures and kills. But try to establish an equitable health-care system and they're ready to take to the hills with the spirit of revolution in the air!
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Moderator » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:13 pm

I am astounded that the phrase "a living document" is now being used by Conservatives as some sort of condemnation. This is not the first such assertion I've heard.

I suppose this means that their interpretation of the Constitution means that it's a Dead document. It would also put into play the frequently used term "Living Bible".

In other words, these people want us to live by strict interpretation -- theirs, BTW, not anyone else's -- of a document written more than 200 years ago. I suppose, then, we may also assume that anything beyond the original Bill of Rights is also null and void. And that the Constitutional protection of Free Speech extends only to newspapers, books and pamphlets.

(In which case, Mr. Limbaugh and company are due for one massive class-action lawsuit for their comments about the rest of us Americans.)

And not to mention the impact on "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA". . . !
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Moderator » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:14 pm

Two great thoughts with but a single mind, Ezra.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:48 pm

They also skip by "Promote the general welfare." This could mean cradle to grave security for all we know.

Then there's the obvious one--using States Rights to defend segregation. The tenth Amendment gives Congress the right to pass laws that are not forbidden them by the constitution.

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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:49 pm

Even Ron Paul said the Constitution is confusing.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:15 pm

To mangle W H Auden...The Constitution is like a mirror in that when an ass peers in no saint peers out.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:47 pm

Another Constitutional Convention. You with me Ezra.

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Barney Dannelke
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Barney Dannelke » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:14 am

I just finally got around to reading this 3 weeks ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magaz ... ama-t.html

Any Interview where the POTUS actually references everything from
Glass-Steagall to the economic outlook of LeBron James versus the rest of
us gives me a big throbbing hard-on.

Sorry. Sleep deprivation. Deal.

I think you will enjoy this if you've not read it. A little fluffy right near the end but PLENTY of meat in the middle.


- Barney
History is a vast early warning system. -Norman Cousins (1915-1990)

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Steve Evil
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:21 pm

Again, that ridiculous association of "Health Care" and "Communism". You'd think the whole world was one big Communist prison!

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FrankChurch
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:18 pm

The right even think the Baucus bill is too radical. That bill gives away almost everything to big Insurance and Pharma. The right just wants to stomp a nigger.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:33 pm

Again, that ridiculous association of "Health Care" and "Communism". You'd think the whole world was one big Communist prison!

Yeah but that's what we would expect a Canadian single payer spawn of the devil to say now isn't it? Out demon! Out! You'll not sap our precious bodily fluids with your heathen ways!

It is our god given right to have shitty health-care!
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:07 pm

45 thousand people die every year because of lack of health insurance. A sin!

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Re: Barack Obama - 44th President of the US of A

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:09 pm

Grade A kudos to Obama for killing the missile shield in Eastern Europe. Not only did it egg on Russia, who we need in finding loose nukes, but it made us look a bit less fanatical in the region.


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