On Taxation and Socialism

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:10 pm

As an anarchist I agree that authoritarian government is bad and should be abolished. But for now we need a bigger welfare state and more oversight. Only the government can do it--until we get our shit together.

Thankfully morality is ingrained into our dna.

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Postby Moderator » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:06 pm

FrankChurch wrote:A lot of these so called earmarks were made up. They talked about a high speed train from Disneyland to Vegas. It's not even in the bill. It mentions high speed rail, but not for any particular area.


Well, and frankly California has a major HS rail project already under way (with bonds approved by voters).

Anyone who has ever made the drive from OC to Vegas will agree that a fast train t Vegas would be money well spent.

But Boehner won't support infrastructure projects that aren't in his home state, at least according to his diatribes against this sort "wasteful spending".
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Postby robochrist » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:56 pm

"Sometimes it just means "let's get the fedrul gummint outta the pitchur 'cuz we wanna develop and build and dump waste and mine, and it's a lot easier to bribe local and state officials."

Exactly. Exactly.

ESPECIALLY true in THIS era!

Some of us here seem...a bit DATED in just where we ARE now.

Somehow, I don't think figures like Tavis Smiley, Bill Cosby, Obama, or even Colin Powel would support government POLICY - not "government", but POLICY - that would "put blacks into the back of the bus again".

Harsh? I think that's stupid as hell!

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:40 am

We surely don't want to spend precious tax money so Barber can have an easier avenue to losing his money in Vegas.

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Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:54 am

FrankChurch wrote:We surely don't want to spend precious tax money so Barber can have an easier avenue to losing his money in Vegas.


Obviously you haven't seen how badly the Vegas economy is doing. They need me to be only a couple hours away.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

Anthony Ravenscroft
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Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:24 pm

"efficient government" is at best a questionable proposition. It's like "high-speed mastodon": doable, perhaps, but why, & at what expense?

"efficient democracy" is an oxymoron. All that "checks & balances" stuff was put in specifically to make the government of this country awkward & clumsy.

If we're going to build a truly efficient government, we'd have to begin from an iron-fisted model with absolute adherence to a streamlined set of rules, imposed without exception or even appeal.

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Postby reddragon70 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:25 pm

Anthony Ravenscroft wrote:If we're going to build a truly efficient government, we'd have to begin from an iron-fisted model with absolute adherence to a streamlined set of rules, imposed without exception or even appeal.


Sadly this is absolutely true. The most efficient form of government is the dictatorship. The Tyranical Despot.

Democracy means that every decision by the ruling government will be sabotaged by the opposition even if its a good idea, just because they are traditional enemies and will never agree.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:55 pm

I will take the Post Office over the HMO any day.

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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:10 pm

Frank that statement made a perverse sort of sense to me and that scares me.


Folks the people who work in AREA CODE 202 are NOT the government. In our system the PEOPLE are the government. The people who work in AREA CODE 202 work FOR the government, at the discretion of the govt, at the mercy of the govt, at the indulgence of the govt.

Efficient government is you and me getting off our fat asses and educating ourselves and participating.

The moment you define the govt as something other than yourself you are fucked.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Postby cynic » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:21 pm

anthony,redd,frank, ezra,
am i dreaming?had a stroke?materialized in bizzaro world or the twilight zone?

follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:05 am

Mike, what in the world are you babbling about?

cynic
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Postby cynic » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:51 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Mike, what in the world are you babbling about?
frank,
i was refering to the four previous,consecutive posts which i agreed with almost wholeheartedly.
i attempted a silly little joke regarding my amazment.
sorry you didn't like it.

but speaking of babble
---------------
FrankChurch Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject:

As an anarchist I agree that authoritarian government is bad and should be abolished. But for now we need a bigger welfare state and more oversight. Only the government can do it--until we get our shit together.

Thankfully morality is ingrained into our dna.
-----------------------

pretzel logic at it's best?
your anarchy appears to be an affectation at best

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:06 am

No, its logic logic. You cannot dismantle capitalism with just an idea. You have to use state power to do it, because capitalism is just too powerful. Not the best idea, but the only one that can work. Then we dismantle the state.

As Michael Albert has stated, we can stomach mere socialist reforms, but our anarchist utopia is always looking at us from the rear view mirror.

cynic
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Postby cynic » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:55 pm

FrankChurch wrote:No, its logic logic. You cannot dismantle capitalism with just an idea. You have to use state power to do it, because capitalism is just too powerful. Not the best idea, but the only one that can work. Then we dismantle the state.

As Michael Albert has stated, we can stomach mere socialist reforms, but our anarchist utopia is always looking at us from the rear view mirror.

whether capital is under private or government control, PEOPLE are involved.our capacity for cooperation(morality)is always tempered by innate competetiveness.
mankinds greatest strides in agriculture, mass production of metal and fossil fuels have been achieved by private concerns capacity for innovation and the drive for profit.
this is not to say that the influence of governnment COULD not achieve the same.the romans did a damn fine job.but they,as spain, france and britain ,experienced the limit of the growth their approach could sustain.we may follow in turn.
something akin to a world government may be next,but until and unless there is a full dissemination of technology,knowledge and the capacity to share natural resources worldwide,the individual will not be truly free.and there may always be that one jerk that wants more than you have.

follow your bliss

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Postby paul » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:23 am

Just catching up, excuse the lateness of the question:

Barber wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:We surely don't want to spend precious tax money so Barber can have an easier avenue to losing his money in Vegas.


Obviously you haven't seen how badly the Vegas economy is doing. They need me to be only a couple hours away.


Steve, in all naiveté, can the LV industry really be doing all that bad? That beggars my imagination. Even though I know the recession hurts real working folk (not a good thing, obviously) I have a niggling, uninformed voice in the back of my head saying things like,"Well, shit hoss, too bad about that $62,846,467,568,374.56 neon light bill. Might have to sell a parking lot."

This ignorance is based solely on seeing the catapulting Lottery tix sales at our stores. Bad times make for bad decisions, such as (IMHO) gambling with the little money you got. Really, i'm not trying to sound flippant.

Or, as Eddie Izzard said when we went to see him in Vegas, "C'mon people! This town was built on bad math."
The medium is the message.


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