A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Moderator » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:42 am

I don't think any of us are "going after" anyone on the Pav. Kate is a rational, thinking Conservative Christian. I respect her views as she seems to respect mine. But, again, the rational Conservatives are precisely the folks who need to corral their fringies, and not only aren't they doing so a number of them are either leaving the party or hidng their heads in the sand. Getting shouted down hurts, but getting shouted down by your own peers hurts a lot worse.

Steve Dooner's post says it almost exactly.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:42 pm

Ah, I go after people. Maybe that was it. Twiddles thumbs.

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Samuel John Klein » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:37 pm

Barber wrote:I don't think any of us are "going after" anyone on the Pav. Kate is a rational, thinking Conservative Christian. I respect her views as she seems to respect mine. But, again, the rational Conservatives are precisely the folks who need to corral their fringies, and not only aren't they doing so a number of them are either leaving the party or hidng their heads in the sand. Getting shouted down hurts, but getting shouted down by your own peers hurts a lot worse.

Steve Dooner's post says it almost exactly.


I gotta come down on the side of the various Steves here.

I've always been sadly and darkly amused at the free pass the "nice" "Conservative" "Christians" get when it comes to being held to account for the actions of others in their tribe.

Of course, they don't control each other. My remark is not necessarily meant to broad-brush, but there is always, I think, some collateral damage to be expected when allying one's self with a certain poisonous group.

I think the corollary of Niven's First Law applies here. Niven's First declares Never throw shit at an armed man; the first corollary of this is usually listed as Never stand next to someone who throws shit at an armed man. A bunch of very noisy Christians have been throwing shit at people for a very long time now in a concerted effort to assure cultural ascendance and supremacy. The dishing out has been very easy for them, but when it comes to the taking it … well, obnoxious and toxic organziations and people they had no trouble fellow-travelling with when they were climbing the scrotum pole are now conveniently anathema, now they they're reaping the whirlwind of bad faith they've sown.

But still they identify as part of the tribe that was trying to destroy us all. Plaints of "I'm not like them" ring hollow. Where were they when their favorite vandals were busy ruining the store? Did they think we'd all forgive and forget? Many of us are not that credulous.

Being reminded that there's some speaking up and remodeling of their tribe's home and ways and means is needed is hardly harsh punishment, especially considering the hurt and vitriol that the conservative evangelical movement has hurled (and continues to hurl) in the main at gays, liberals, non-evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, transgendered, the poor …

And if one of those groups decides to get a little uppity in an online forum after holding in the hurt all these years, it's disingenuous to be surprised and wounded by it.

The "nice" "Conservatives" need to get to work and be serious about cleaning their house if I'm ever going to trust them or take them at their word again. Until they get serious about it, then the labels will be a red flag to someone's bull.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:39 pm

How are the fringe going to calm down if some moderate shushes them? These people are mainstream in their eyes. Talk radio backs them up.

I certainly would bitchslap any liberal who tried to calm me down. Radicals rule!!

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Moderator » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:25 pm

I don't advocate shutting anyone up -- I advocate clear and vocal disagreement/denunciation.

Otherwise, one is "Complicit in your silence".
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:51 pm

OK gang.... Having two very nice, very conservative, VERY Christian people for parents, and knowing a few of their friends you are painting people with a very wide brush.

Even amongst the Conservative crowd, not all Christians are the same. My parents, and the people they attend church with, aren't out there spouting off. They vote their conscience and that's about it.

Now, about those on the fringes of the fringe. I've tried talking to "true believers" of every stripe, and ya know something.... NONE OF THEM LISTEN! With that in mind, how are the more rational amongst us supposed to get through to people who don't listen.

The best we can do is realize that there is a minority in every group and do our best to find those of a rationality and intellegence we can deal with, and get our information about said group from them....

Just MHO, YMMV!

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Moderator » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:05 pm

I'm really beginning to think I'm not communicating well.

There are, in this country, VERY intelligent, thoughtful and considerate Republicans.


There are, in this country, VERY intelligent, thoughtful and considerate Christians.


There are, in this country, VERY intelligent, thoughtful and considerate Christian Republicans.


And I wish they would step up to the plate and condemn the repugnant and narrow minded jackals who are currently the public face of Christianity and Republicanism. Until they overtly tell these people that they do not speak for everyone in the party, the elected representatives of the party are going to continue to do reprehensible things, includng lying to their constituents about things that ultimately might be in their best interest but would piss off the narrow minded jackals.

It is not up to Dems to point out that Limbaugh is a jackal. Or Coulter is a cobra. Or Hannity a snake. It's up to members of the conservative movement to shut "enough" at these folks.

And there ain't a one of them stepping up to do it.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:16 am

My Uncle is born again, my Aunt goes to Russia every year to convert the dirty commies--they listen to Rush, love Coulter, Savage, Malkin, the like. They are about as nice as you can get. There is just this lost connection somewhere with their ethics and their sense. They see morality in Rush that we don't see. I have given up on arguing. They think blacks have too many babies. They want the mexicans all rounded up and sent back. They want prayer and bible reading in schools. They want welfare banned. They are still as nice as rain on a puppies nose. I don't get it.

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:45 am

FrankChurch wrote:My Uncle is born again, my Aunt goes to Russia every year to convert the dirty commies--they listen to Rush, love Coulter, Savage, Malkin, the like. They are about as nice as you can get. There is just this lost connection somewhere with their ethics and their sense. They see morality in Rush that we don't see. I have given up on arguing. They think blacks have too many babies. They want the mexicans all rounded up and sent back. They want prayer and bible reading in schools. They want welfare banned. They are still as nice as rain on a puppies nose. I don't get it.


Sadly, these are exactly the people who don't see their own hypocrisy in worshipping Christ and yet standing resolutely against everything Christ would have wanted.

They stand in finger-pointing judgment of non-Christians, and yet fail in this very fundamental aspect of "Following Christ's Teaching".

It's an extraordinary tragedy.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Barney Dannelke » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:50 am

My favorite Christian "tell" this week was Kennedy related. I heard someone say "well, he's gone to his reward..." and then later the same day read it in a comments section to an op-ed piece. In both cases I am quite certain "heaven" was NOT what they were thinking. I'm pretty sure they were laughing on the inside that Ted was roasting in some Hell of their personal imagination.

But butter would not melt in their mouths.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby David Loftus » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:07 pm

> And there ain't a one of them stepping up to do it.


I would suggest this is because they've been trained to follow orders from above (even if mediated through multiple levels of authoritative interpreters) and to fear rather than to challenge bullies.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:56 pm

David Loftus wrote:I would suggest this is because they've been trained to follow orders from above (even if mediated through multiple levels of authoritative interpreters) and to fear rather than to challenge bullies.


I saw that movie. I believe it was called V for Vendetta ... or maybe Brazil ... or was it 1984???


In any case, it never turned out well for the general populace.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:22 pm

Anarchism rears its pretty head, basking in the spotlight.

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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Samuel John Klein » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:00 pm

Barney Dannelke wrote:My favorite Christian "tell" this week was Kennedy related. I heard someone say "well, he's gone to his reward..." and then later the same day read it in a comments section to an op-ed piece. In both cases I am quite certain "heaven" was NOT what they were thinking. I'm pretty sure they were laughing on the inside that Ted was roasting in some Hell of their personal imagination.

But butter would not melt in their mouths.


Hell, yeah!

I write on a political blog under an assumed name (which is, I think, the only honorable way to do it any more) and I noted an aside on Senator Kennedy's death that the conservatives were just going to be nasty about it, and some dumbass local conservative cloaca, who in retrospect was probably a-trollin', took the trouble to strawman the entire post based on his absolute wounding at the sheer gall I had in calling them on it.

And then today, The Talented Mr. Limbaugh had to get in a dig about Kennedy.

But don't you dare call them out on it, because they become babies in desperate need of a diaper change.

How dare you … you're a liberal! You're suppposed to be NICE!

(generally addressing here) No, not me, pal. Not no more. It'll be a temperate day in Hades before any conservative gets to lecture this liberal on public behavior. Remember, it was Nixon who brought ratfucking into the political lexicon, not McGovern.
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Re: A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

Postby Samuel John Klein » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:17 pm

Barber wrote:
Sadly, these are exactly the people who don't see their own hypocrisy in worshipping Christ and yet standing resolutely against everything Christ would have wanted.

They stand in finger-pointing judgment of non-Christians, and yet fail in this very fundamental aspect of "Following Christ's Teaching".

It's an extraordinary tragedy.


It's enough to turn you Taoist, I'll tell you what.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm rereading Raymond Smullyan's The Tao Is Silent.

Oh, well, okay. Yes it is.
Samuel John Klein, your friend, and your friend, and mine too
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