A death like Mussolini's is too good for Karl Rove

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Barney Dannelke
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Postby Barney Dannelke » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:18 am

Steve and Mark -

I'm willing to back off on Powell - quite a bit. His My Lai involvement is/was peripheral, and after the fact. Even My Lai itself is almost small potatoes compared to some of the surgical bombing fuckups that have been perpetuated since then. In a post napalm/agent orange/9-11 world, if I were a teacher I'd have a hard time explaining the full consequences of My Lai to this generation. My point wasn't to damn the military with any broad brush or the entirety of Powell's storied and 90/95% honorable career.

My father and his brother were in the service and I don't have any one approach to things military. I simply wanted to take a step back from the Saint Powell view that I myself almost ascribed to him perhaps 8 or 9 years ago.

It's only to say that I wasn't shocked or surprised to see him used like that by this administration. Readers of the Salon article will see a pattern between Mayor Nagy and Powell in terms of others being used like a cheap condom to spurt lies into.

I do genuinely believe Powell, possibly more than anyone else in the upper tiers of this administration sees the consequences of his actions. A brief time in purgatory for Powell. Hell deeper and hotter then has yet been excavated for most of the others.

- Barney Dannelke
History is a vast early warning system. -Norman Cousins (1915-1990)

Douglas Harrison
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Postby Douglas Harrison » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:25 am

markabaddon wrote: However, spin is still mighty prevalent on the web, you are just able to find alternate viewpoints easily.

Sadly, the web has more than its share of crap, as we who live here know so well. But at least the "channels" don't all have variations on the same crap, and the individual is free to plot her/his own course. Er, through the crap.

D.

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Barney Dannelke
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Postby Barney Dannelke » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:37 am

Steve -

The thing I don't understand about that article is that the first guy (kid) we're going to put on trial is guilty of killing a soldier by tossing a grenade?

If we can move past the grief of losing an American soldier in the course of a military engagement - it's bad but at least it's a soldiers death and not an ultra-stupid death.*

*If it's true, I remember reports were that the first U.S. casualties in Gulf War I were some troops "joy-riding" in a Hum-Vee at night who launched themselves into a deep culvert. If true - THAT'S a stupid death.

Now I guess we currently reserve the right to treat anyone not in a uniform reporting to a command and control structure as a terrorist - as opposed to an "enemy combatant" - which on another day might beg the question how people who fought for the American side in the American Revolutionary War might be viewed by us today - but that's another day - HOWEVER - it seems to me that if he's suspect number 1 out of 80 to be tried and 270 hard cases being held in that facility - well, that sounds like the kind of fighting my father-in-law did while marching up the boot in Italy.

And (to my knowledge) none of those ground pounders were held in prisons for years and then tried as terrorists or soldiers or losers or any damned thing at all.

This seems like evil legal frosting on a layer cake of stupid and pointless to me.

- Barney Dannelke

p.s. - Yes, I think we have SOME bad guys under lock and key. But it's harder to believe or know that if this is your show trial.
History is a vast early warning system. -Norman Cousins (1915-1990)

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Postby Moderator » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:40 am

Douglas Harrison wrote:
markabaddon wrote: However, spin is still mighty prevalent on the web, you are just able to find alternate viewpoints easily.

Sadly, the web has more than its share of crap, as we who live here know so well. But at least the "channels" don't all have variations on the same crap, and the individual is free to plot her/his own course. Er, through the crap.

D.


Of course the other end of this is that people who ascribe to a certain philosophy can now readily find others who agree with them and, as a consequence, not listen to the alternative. The net effect is more polarization, not less. With fewer -- non-governmentally controlled neo-Fox archetypal -- sources, the vast majority of us would be forced to listen to both sides of an issue. (I don't mean few overall news sources, I mean fewer of the thousands of partisan sites on the web.)

I would personally send cold hard cash (euros) to any panelist who tells Hannity or O'Reilly that they now HAVE to say something meanspirited and inflammatory about McCain after they verbally trash Obama. And then sit there until they do, repeating that "It's fair and balanced, you say? Then say something equally nasty..."

It is a pipe dream and will never happen, but when the eyelids droop it's a very nice thought.

MARK - I agree it's bad. It's very bad. I'm afraid I don't have the same hope that it can be reversed. We've passed that point and can maybe hope to clamber back to the middle, but other than militarily, we're done leading the world by example.

(When the Emperor had merely hired the tailor, he still had the chance to retain his dignity. Once he wore the "robes" in public, however, there was no way to recover his moral authority.)

(In a way, we've gone the direction of Straczynski's Mimbari when they attacked Earth. Driven temporarily insane by grief, they committed grevious sins against mankind. But in their case, they didn't sacrifice their economy in the process.)

BTW - While we're decrying $4 gas ($4.50 here in the Golden State), I can't help but notice that the Spaniards are protesting $9 diesel, and the French protested $8 gas last week.

Get used to it kids.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Postby Douglas Harrison » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:50 am

Barber wrote:
Douglas Harrison wrote:
markabaddon wrote: However, spin is still mighty prevalent on the web, you are just able to find alternate viewpoints easily.

Sadly, the web has more than its share of crap, as we who live here know so well. But at least the "channels" don't all have variations on the same crap, and the individual is free to plot her/his own course. Er, through the crap.

D.


Of course the other end of this is that people who ascribe to a certain philosophy can now readily find others who agree with them and, as a consequence, not listen to the alternative. The net effect is more polarization, not less. With fewer -- non-governmentally controlled neo-Fox archetypal -- sources, the vast majority of us would be forced to listen to both sides of an issue. (I don't mean few overall news sources, I mean fewer of the thousands of partisan sites on the web.)


Well, I don't agree with you, Steve, but my response is long and involved, so it'll have to wait until this evening. I'm off to the dentist.

D.

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Postby markabaddon » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:02 am

See Steve, you are making some assumptions here. How do we know that the Mimbari Worker Caste did not have a Norma Rae type figure emerge and lead them in organizing until the Military Caste stepped in and...... OK I am even gettign too geeky for MY tastest.

Gas prices will unfortunately, continue to rise, and you are correct that the prices here are far less than in Europe (not sure about Asia, but I suspect it is similar).

There are steps that could be taken to ease some of the ills the country faces. Greater regulation of the banking industry, freeing up of some of the oil reserves to increase supply and reduce gas costs, as well as bringing home our troops from Iraq which is costing billions a day.

It will not be pretty and could be painful, but there are ways to bring this economy back. It does all begin with confidence, however. If people here and abroad believe that there is a plan and there is a hope of success, then investments and spending are more likely to occur. That may be one of the hidden crimes of the Bush Administration, he replaced hope with fear
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:47 pm

Douglas wrote

Unplug yer tv! (That was for you, Ez.)

Actually I haven't owned a TV for 10 years. (My feelings about such things are expressed in the SPIDER forum under the REVEALED AT LAST! WHAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS! thread.)

Yes there are alternative forms of information available but by far the vast majority of the folks here in the US of A get their info from the TV.

Barney I believe the 80% Bush approval at the time of the invasion is accurate but please check me on it. Anyway a lot of people were getting off on the bang bang back then.
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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:30 pm

Ezra,

"Actually I haven't owned a TV for 10 years"

That isn't right. That just isn't right.

You and Ted Kaczynski should do a book together.

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Postby Moderator » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:18 pm

Barney Dannelke wrote: The thing I don't understand about that article is that the first guy (kid) we're going to put on trial is guilty of killing a soldier by tossing a grenade?


You and me both. If throwing a grenade at a soldier is grounds for detention at Guantanamo, then we need to increase the size of the center there -- it would seem that virtually every "enemy combatant" would need to be relocated.

No sense of any kind. And that's the sort of military stupidity you would never find me defending. It simply makes no sense, and -- as you note -- is more of a show trial than anything remotely rising to the level of national security.

How about we capture that Osama guy and put him on trial? THAT might qualify as an offense rising to the level of a military tribunal. But a 15-year old with a hand-grenade? Puh-leez. They humiliate us all with this sort of dog and pony. (And I won't even mention the mockery they make out of the military justice system. Oh wait, just did.)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:22 pm

Yea, Rob is right, not owning a tv for ten years is snobbery of the highest accord.

TV is like anything else--it's a tool that can be used for ill or for good. At least try to stay au courant, Ezra, ya dork.

Kiss kiss.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:24 pm

Alan Colmes would say you all are engaging in hate speech. haha

The bile comes from the liver of love--me.

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Postby Moderator » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:29 pm

Douglas, before you go all Dick Cheney on my ass, take note that the crux of my argument isn't for limited media (I'm a staunch First Amendment advocate), but for that media to have a more balanced view. (Remember, on the net even pedophiles can find peers who insist their attitudes are "normal".)

I'm not saying it's possible, but I'm saying that this multiplicity is not the panacea for having too few "professional" news organizations on television, in print and the radio.

Personally, I favor retroactively limiting the number of stations and papers any one corporation can own, both in total and in-market.

But that doesn't mean I like having websites that flat out lie to their readers/followers.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:33 pm

Television should also have a "public service function." As Thom Hartmann says, the television spectrum is part of the "commons." Intellectual honesty and diversity of opinion should be the norm.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:10 pm

This "for the public good" rhetoric is scary, man.

Repeat after me, and let's get this right:

"I shall now and forever more use tv solely for vile and evil ends"

Get with the times!

Douglas Harrison
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Postby Douglas Harrison » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:29 pm

Did Mark say he's getting too geeky for his testes?

Ezra Lb. wrote:Douglas wrote

Unplug yer tv! (That was for you, Ez.)

Actually I haven't owned a TV for 10 years. (My feelings about such things are expressed in the SPIDER forum under the REVEALED AT LAST! WHAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS! thread.)

Argh! Internet disconnect. Ez, I read all the posts on this board and in the Pavilion. I well know your predilection for non-tv-ness. What I meant was that my admonition was made on your behalf, not for your benefit. My apology.

Yes there are alternative forms of information available but by far the vast majority of the folks here in the US of A get their info from the TV.

Yeah, but the movement away from traditional presentations of the news is beginning to fragment the network audience, and that could provide opportunities for real journalists. (Also for demagogues, yes, Steve.)

D.


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