Outrage after outrage.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Postby Moderator » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:41 am

K. Not a huge fan of the Wiki, but this appears to be accurate.

A presidential pardon may be granted at any time, however, and as when Ford pardoned Nixon, the pardoned person need not yet have been convicted or even formally charged with a crime. Clemency may also be granted without the filing of a formal request and even if the intended recipient has no desire to be pardoned. In the overwhelming majority of cases, however, the Pardon Attorney will consider only petitions from persons who have completed their sentences and, in addition, have demonstrated their ability to lead a responsible and productive life for a significant period after conviction or release from confinement.[5]

It appears that a pardon can be rejected, and must be affirmatively accepted to be officially recognized by the courts. Acceptance also carries with it an admission of guilt.



It's that last part that's the gotcha. If Bush pardons some of his people for international lapses -- torture and other abuses of prisoners, etc -- then international courts could very easily use the pardon as evidence of guilt (it's an admission, yes?).

Interesting.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:05 pm

If Bush pardons some of his people for international lapses -- torture and other abuses of prisoners, etc -- then international courts could very easily use the pardon as evidence of guilt (it's an admission, yes?).

I'll have to do some research to find the actual quote but a couple months ago when news came out that the higher-ups had dicussed torture before the revelations about Gauntanimo (sp?) and Abu-Graub (sp??) came out, I heard a radio interview with Bush where he was bragging about all they had done in the War on Terror. He actually said they had known about the use of water-boarding and boasted about it. Now under international law WBing is definitely considered torture. Bush was too stupid to realize he was admitting to having authorized a War Crime but I'll bet his Chief Counsel had a bad couple minutes!

It'll be very interesting to see of somebody would actually attempt to indite Bush for War Crimes. Sadly I think most people are so glad to see him go that'll they just want to forget the whole thing.
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rich

Postby rich » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:33 pm

Actually you don't even need a pardon as an admission of guilt. As TAXI TO THE DARK SIDE showed, the Army's own death certificate they gave to Dilawar's family listed cause of death as homicide. It should be relatively easy once there's a Democratic controlled Congress to get all the information since, like Nazis, we keep a pretty good paper trail 'cause everyone wants to cover their own asses.

I just want to see Dick Cheney on the witness stand when Tom Cruise asks him if he ordered the code rode...can't wait to hear him yell, "You're goddamn right I did!"

Seriously, these guys all thought they were doing the right thing, even more so 'cause it was all a bunch of Mooz-lums, instead of God-fearing Christians. The paperwork is there, it's just a matter of how much digging they want to do.

The signing statements, from what I understand, haven't really been decided on by the Supreme Court. Maybe we'll find out since Bush started using them as his own personal, "I'll do that one, but I'm not gonna do that one" line-item veto stuff. (And the line item veto was shot down by the Supreme Court when Clinton tried to use it.)

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Postby markabaddon » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:46 am

Here is another outrage that just boggles my mind:

New Guidelines Would Give F.B.I. Broader Powers

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/21/washi ... jjSb4Zd7CA

Basically, this legislation would allow the FBI to open an investigation without any cause for suspicion. What Stalin wannabe thought this was a good idea and how on earth could this be possible in a democracy?
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Postby FrankChurch » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:46 am

We aren't exactly a democracy, but I get your outrage.

The FBI can basically do whatever they want. The people don't seem to care and the Democrats are asleep.

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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby Moderator » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:53 pm

I add this to this thread only because of the appropriate title.

Fuck you, Cheney.

Evil Incarnate wrote:Former Vice President Dick Cheney says there was “never any evidence” that Saddam Hussein’s Iraq played any role in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.

“On the question of whether or not Iraq was involved in 9/11, there was never any evidence to prove that,” Cheney said during an interview Monday night with Fox News’ Greta Van Susteren.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200906 ... tico/23228
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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:43 am

Now he tells us.

Bastard.


This in the Post today: The Gun lobby was all set to unload on Sonia Sotomayor as a "anti-gun radical" because she voiced the opinion in one of her decisions that the Second Amendment does not prevent States and local govts from putting their own restrictions on gun ownership. But yesterday the conservative US Court of Appeals for the 7th circuit used the same reasoning to unanimously reject a challenge to a tough Chicago handgun law. (I should point out that this was also Justice Scalia's opinion in the decsion concerning the DC ban on guns. What he said was you could put restrictions you just can't ban ownership outright.)

Whoops!

She looks like a good candidate. I still want to hear her thoughts about ethnicity and gender although the right is completely overreacting to her quoted comments last week. As usual context is everything.
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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:40 am

The shocking thing is that Ezra's buddy Hitchens still believes that.

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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:58 pm

Hitch thinks Sonia Sotomayor is a anti-gun radical?

I'll have to have a long talk with that boy.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:17 pm

Two rational atheists..lol

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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:31 am

(The Nauru history is a pretty sad one. Hopefully it's better there now.)

I am amazed and rather angry Cheney has been admitting things such as "no evidence" in the last few days and nobody's howling for his head.
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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby Barney Dannelke » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:56 am

http://www.grist.org/article/2009-06-03 ... -lobbyist/

I wish I could get a paycheck out of being an asshole. Because I can be SUCH an asshole.
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Re: Outrage after outrage.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:03 pm

I'm sorry Barney, but you are not an asshole. You are a big softy, a thistle on the wind, kiddo.

I'm the head asshole here and don't you forget it. My blue collar anger fuels me.


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