Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:37 pm

The snideness of Hitchens doesn't go over well in Christian America, where warmhearted virtue is seen as a balm. Jello Biafra joked about how disarmingly nice evangelicals are. As Chomsky said, to them religion is communal, they need that sense of belonging.

Six thousand year old earths give them comfort and an answer to the complexity of how the world works. It may be a bad answer but we are not giving them answers, beyond snide putdowns.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby diane bartels » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:05 am

Oh Ezra, totally agreed. And to the extent my post was unkind or thoughtless to you, I am truly and deeply sorry. From the first of your posts I read, I think I caught a glimpse of how painful being raised
in that environment has to have been for someome of your sensitivty and intelligence. I think your sadness over their ignorance and your caring nature make you so vehement at times, you lose sight over how offensive some things you say are to those of us smart educated believers. I am by far and away not the smartest person I know, not even the smartest person in my family. But for a large compendium of reasons, too large,personal and boring to detail here, I get all barracudaey when I feel my intelligence questioned. Maybe when you talk about people of faith finally coming out of their caves, it rubs me wrong because I do not feel like I'm in a cave. And you do seem to link all of us together.
Now I would be fascinated to discuss how you first came to doubt the beliefs you were raised with, what you read to help you ponder, if any arguments of the other side seemed at all probable, etc. I imagine this would be a long discussion, not doable in one or two posts. And it is one I would most like to have with you and the rest of you guys here. And I must now go buy Mr. Hutchins books, because I called him arrogant without having read him. This is a lazy mental process I do not allow in myself, though I do, sadly, allow physical laziness. Not going right now. Currently drinking milk and eating chocalate chip cookies. Sorry for offensive tone to you again Ezra. Diane

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:49 am

Let's play a game:

First, who is the audience for Chomsky? Is it right wing extremists? Say right-wing evangelical Christians like George Bush (as you rightly point out)? Or is it very prominent Rabbis in Israel who call for visiting the judgment of Amalek on all Palestinians (total destruction, down to their animals)? Or is it the radical Islamic fundamentalists who have been Washington's most valued allies in the Middle East for 75 years (note that Bush's current trip to the Middle East celebrates two events: the 60th anniversary of the State of Israel, and the 75th anniversary of establishment of US-Saudi relations, each of which merits more comment)? If those are the intended audiences, the effort is plainly a waste of time. Is the audience blaclava wearing anarchists? Again a waste of time. Is it the grieving mother who consoles herself by thinking that her child died fighting for his country against terrorism? If so, only the most morally depraved will deliver solemn lectures to her about the falsity of her beliefs. Is it those who liberal affiliations and beliefs, but don't have to be reminded of what they knew as teenagers about the genocidal character of laisez-faire capitalism, the fact that America is not always right, or that democracy has often been the banner under which hideous crimes were carried out (the Vietnam War, for example)? Plainly not. The message is old hat, and irrelevant, at least for those whose political affiliations are a way of finding some sort of community and mutual support in an atomized society lacking social bonds. Who, in fact, is the audience?

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:48 am

Steve Evil, real cute boobie.

Chomsky gets huge crowds, no matter where he speaks. Since we have a very small radical left they can't be all leftists. Most of them are probably normal people who are curious about what he has to say. They either disagree or agree on some things, their right.

He puts out a small book of interviews after 9/11, that mostly blames the attack on US foreign policy, the book becomes a huge best seller. He does not just talk to the choir. He creates a choir.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:32 pm

Frank

Lets put it another way. Most every writer, fiction or non fiction, has an Idea Reader in mind. That one type of person he most wants to appeal to.

Who is Chomsky's Idea Reader?

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Moderator » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:59 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Chomsky gets huge crowds, no matter where he speaks.



So...if he's on the phone in the bathroom...
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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:54 pm

I don't believe he does such things, just as I don't think of the Queen shitting. Oh my.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:31 pm

Diane no offense intended and none taken. This is an argument that needs to take place and sometimes arguments get heated. Sane human beings can agree to disagree.

The real enemies of us all are thoughtlessness and a cold heart.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:22 am

FrankChurch wrote:

Chomsky gets huge crowds,



So does Hitchens.

no matter where he speaks.


Ditto.

Most of them are probably normal people who are curious about what he has to say. They either disagree or agree on some things, their right.


Indeed. As with Hitchens.

He puts out a small book of interviews after 9/11, that mostly blames the attack on US foreign policy, the book becomes a huge best seller. He does not just talk to the choir. He creates a choir.


So what? God is Not Great was a best seller. Face it dearie: there's nothing in Chomsky's words that couldn't be applied to himself. By that bizzaare rationale, nothing would ever be published, not even his own books.

Furthermore, is it not a cowardly shirking of duty to not review Hitchens? What's the point of being the leading leftist intellectual if you're not going to take on contrary evidence? Unlike all the usual suspects, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, the White House Press Corps, Hitchens is actually convincing. He made a very compelling case for invading Iraq and probably convinced alot of people to support it who might otherwise have opposed it. His voice is heard, it carries weight, he is a factor. Why isn't Chomsky taking him on? Why is it "not worthwhile" to let the war's most effective cheerleader go unanswered?

If the great Noam Chomsky can't do it, who the hell can?

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Moderator » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:01 am

Steve Evil wrote:If the great Noam Chomsky can't do it, who the hell can?


Rachel Maddow. But she's just a gay chick who can be easily dismissed by the core.
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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:53 am

Hitchens lied about the war, made irrational comments, ducked the international law black hole, the morality of invasion, bombing of civilians, the fact that invading created terrorism, not slowed it. Chomsky got all that right, Hitchens looked like a sick gerbil.

Chomsky ducked him because he has better things to do. Hitchens compared him and others to Bin Ladin.

Hitchens did do a good smashup job on Gore Vidal in the latest Vanity Fair. Sad, but Vidal is in a sad state mentally.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:15 am

What, better things to do than respond to questions about the war? Don't give me that. If he's not willing to take on opponents, he's not much use to anyone. As for Hitchens, general condemnations won't do much good. You'll need specifics backed up by citations. "You are wrong on point A because of evidence B". A person is not wrong because we don't like what he says. He's wrong if we can prove him wrong with evidence. Rhetoric is not evidence.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:16 pm

He thinks debates are meaningless affairs, since it tends to be more heat than light. Better that he give talks or do interviews. More enlightening.

He answers about a hundred letters a day, mostly from critics. With the elaborate falsehoods that have been cooked up about him it would take all day just responding to the lies, when he could just concentrate on teaching the masses, a more coherent aim. Hitchens talks for fame and for ego, Chomsky is trying to do the right thing.

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:27 pm

Frank

Has Chomsky ever heard about Oxford Style debate?

Here's how it works. Ya got your people for and against an arguement. Here's the twist though, it is ALWAYS done in front of an audience, who is polled at both the beginning and end of the debate. Which ever side changes the largest precentage of minds is declared the winner.

Let's face it. It's been said before, but it you cannot get another person or persons to agree with you, 'specially if you disagree with them, then what's the point of having a public platform for your opinions.

So, he answers a lot of letters. So do the people at Oscar Mayer and most every other coporation in America. So do a lot of other authors. What makes Chomsky's letter writing mean anything to me?

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Re: Frank's evil Noam Chomsky corner

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:30 pm

BTW Frank

Since when did you have the ability from THOUSANDS of miles away to know what someone else is thinking? Hitchens thins he's doing the right thing too after all.


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