SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:41 pm

Our Priest here was at bible study and he talked about having to do prayers at death beds and he noticed the look of serenity on the person's face when they passed on. Like they knew something was about to take place. Maybe it was a false flag, maybe some dream world orbiting, but I'd suspect that that person saw his or her proof. As long as we admit there are a lot of mysteries that will go a long way in seeing other proofs.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:30 am

But not everyone has the luxury of dying in a bed surrounded by loving family and friends, morphined to the gills. What about the many tens of thousands slowly starving to death or the ones dying quickly in fear and terror though natural disaster or some other catastrophe? Serenity?

I don't know means I don't know, not god did it. The biggest mystery of all is why people believe in things without any good reasons to do so. A lie doesn't become the truth just because it's comforting. And even if there is s heaven we still have to go through the experience of dying to get there. Why is it comforting to a suffering person to tell them they're going to heaven? How does that diminish the suffering? Isn't it just a different kind of morphine?

And it's not about proof. It's about e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:22 am

The Bible does talk about how God's plan confounds the wise. The wise try to construct huge arguments to try to deflect the whole God paradigm while innocent faith is the method--come to God like a mere child trusts a parent. :) Atheists overthink this subject too much.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:56 pm

FrankChurch wrote:The Bible does talk about how God's plan confounds the wise. The wise try to construct huge arguments to try to deflect the whole God paradigm while innocent faith is the method--come to God like a mere child trusts a parent. :) Atheists overthink this subject too much.


True Frank true. Reason is such a terrible burden. What a relief it would be to just make stuff up.

But you know what? If I had posted comments that religious believers were simple minded and childish you would have been deeply offended.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:58 pm

FrankChurch wrote:The Bible does talk about how God's plan confounds the wise. The wise try to construct huge arguments to try to deflect the whole God paradigm while innocent faith is the method--come to God like a mere child trusts a parent. :) Atheists overthink this subject too much.


I notice a connection to the kind of pretzel logic that forms the basis of Alchemical philosophy, basically that if you think you've found an answer you know automatically that you're wrong. Claiming that the wise cannot understand doesn't mean that, really, they don't, only that you're pre-emptively defending your turf by invalidating any criticisms before they even arise. A shell game at best. Claiming that we atheists overthink it is really just admitting that most believers underthink it.

Tim Raven
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Tim Raven » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:13 pm

In all of the arguments that I've had over the veracity of religions, the one thing that usually strikes me after the discussion is why was there even a discussion?

Any intelligent worldly person can look at the details of any religion and see how false and fantastic it is, how intentionally designed with ready made arguments of faith to defend against the reality of their manipulations. The sky is clearly blue not polka dotted with a herringbone border and no, I don’t think that faith in someone else's story is going to change it to polka dots for me. Ever. Because with little effort just like everyone else I can look right at it and see it clearly. Why do you keep insisting that the sky is polka dotted with a herringbone border? Why do you kill people because they can see that the sky is blue rather than polka dotted with a herringbone border?

Look at the sky with your own eyes, not someone else's eyes.
It’s blue.
Shades of blue.
Which is a different discussion.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 am

Frank

To take the whole child like faith thing to the next step, try this on for size. There comes a time in every child's life when it wants to quit relying on its parents and to think and do things for itself.

Atheists have gotten there a bit sooner that those of faith.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 am

Frank

To take the whole child like faith thing to the next step, try this on for size. There comes a time in every child's life when it wants to quit relying on its parents and to think and do things for itself.

Atheists have gotten there a bit sooner that those of faith.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:06 pm

Well, Robin knows the ins and outs as we type. I hope he enjoys the view.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:01 am

FrankChurch wrote:Well, Robin knows the ins and outs as we type. I hope he enjoys the view.


Frank I know you mean well but you have no idea how this kind of flowery piety sounds to other folks who don't share your beliefs. At my Mom's funeral there were no end of family friends assuring us she was in heaven with the angels, etc. It was meant as comfort but it had the effect of somehow delegitimizing our grief. "She's better off. Get over it!"

I know you didn't mean it that way but just be sad. Right now that's enough.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:17 am

I gotta agree with Ezra on this one Frank, but for a slightly different reason.

What kind of a kind and loving god allows good people like Robin and myself to suffer to the point that one of us actually died at their own hand and the other thinks about it a lot more than you'd think. I mean with all the truly vile people on this planet,you'd think he'd take them and leave us good folk alone for awhile.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:22 pm

We allow it.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:21 pm

FrankChurch wrote:We allow it.


FUCK YOU. I had not one damned thing to do with Robin Williams suicide or the thousands that happened worldwide between now and then. I make it a point to talk every one I can because I know what it feels like to be alone and needing a person to talk to.

There are a few people around here who have at one time or another been there for me in ways and for reasons you will never be able to understand. I'm ending this before I say something that gets me really busted.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:24 pm

Whoa, Lori, that came out wrong. I didn't mean what you think. Lori!!

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:24 pm

Whatever I said I'm sorry Lori.


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