SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:23 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Ezra, yes, you, Ezra, the death of Charles Colson? Your take?

Runz.


My take? Okay.

The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones.

-Juilius Caesar, Act 3 Scene 2
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Spot on pooksters.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:20 am

Isn't the appearence of the great white killer whale fulfillment of some ancient prophecy?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 6#47186326


Isn't the appearence of the great white blowhard fulfillment of some ancient prophecy?

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... plans?lite


It's good to know that people are thinking ahead...

http://www.futureoftech.msnbc.msn.com/t ... sex-734612
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:16 pm

Kudos to the Bishops for saying the Ryan budget is harsh to the poor. Let's see him call them anti-American.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:40 pm

Four separate experiments indicating that critical thinking---that which many Americans are so weak in---erodes religious belief:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ine-belief


This sort of underscores the common experience of being told, when you explain to someone that in your opinion religion simply doesn't make sense, that you have to just believe! and never mind thinking about it so much.

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:44 pm

I cringe when I'm told not to overanalyse things. 9 times out of then I'm just being told to turn my brain off and stop thinking about things. By some astounding act of doublethink, notthinking, not knowing and not caring is seen as the wiser path.

No thankyou.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:47 pm

We live in a culture oddly enough given its supposed Enlightenment basis that priviliges intuition and emotional responses ("Trust the force, Luke!") and is inherently suspicious of (although awed by) Brainiacs and "know-it-all" scientists.

Reasoning and analytical thinking have to be taught. Can anyone deny we do a pretty lousy job of it? I studied Formal Logic in school and it was, pardon the bad pun, a revelation. One class project was to find real world examples of all the formal logical fallacies. Took about three days of watching TV.

The blinders come off when a skilled instructor guides you through it. My reaction was to wonder why I had to take a minor in philosophy at a University in order to be exposed to this stuff? Why isn't it taught in every High School in the land?

Is it cynical to point out that it would put most politicians and priests out of a job?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:52 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:The blinders come off when a skilled instructor guides you through it. My reaction was to wonder why I had to take a minor in philosophy at a University in order to be exposed to this stuff? Why isn't it taught in every High School in the land?

Is it cynical to point out that it would put most politicians and priests out of a job?


Remember The Dead Poets Society when Robin Williams says to the principle, "I thought our job was to teach them to think" and the response?

"Not on a bet. That can wait till college. Here you teach them to obey." I paraphrased that.

Teachers do not want to work that hard with a bunch of students some of whom probably still think fart jokes are the height of avante garde cool. Parents don't like to have all their own views questioned across the dinner table. It's not taught for convenience in the guise of discipline.

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:31 am

No principal would admit that, but the entire education system, and indeed all of society, is organized around that principle.

It's not entirely a bad thiing. . . I can say for certain that before a certain age, few children understand that responsibilites accompany rights. And "rights", for most of them, rarely amounts to more than the "right" to do as one pleases. Given freedom in the classroom, most would just choose to leave the classsroom.

Perhaps classrooms are a flawed institution. There is no doubt that it is ill suited to certain kinds of learners. But I don't know what the alternative would be.

It's a bit of a dilema: I want to nurture the spirit, but to some extent I have to break down the spirit, if the environment is to have any chance of working. I tend to justify it with Pheonix metaphors, but it doesn't always work.

Then there's this cultural obsession with test results on both sides of the Atlantic, which drags down and strangles any chance for real learning. . .

diane bartels
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby diane bartels » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:59 am

It just occurred to me that while I am quick to whine re bad news and feelings, I can be stingy re the good news. So Vinnie, my nephew, better known in these here parts as the Red Menace, got accepted to U of I., Champagne. What reminded me, Ezra, is you're saying you minored in Philosophy. Thats what he wants to major in. He is very good at it. So there is some good news. DB

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:52 pm

Diane, why all the fascination with death?

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby diane bartels » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:24 pm

Nothing in previous post re Red Menace about death. Why the interest in serial killers? In part, because of the separation of themselves into parts that they must do to kill and return to their lives. In a way, Speck was more a spree killer than a serial killer. Bundy is the one who fascinates me, because he was so much a part of the normal world in his day life, and so darkly completely evil in in killing. How did he live like that? It if that fragmentation, the divide in the psyche of the individual that has me hooked as a story line. Probably bc sometimes I feel a milder form of separation, of fragmentation in myself. It's not the death that fascinates, it's what the living people do with the death they live in around and with.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:49 pm

With someone like Bundy, I'm not sure he was fragmented as he was missing some important pieces of himself. If you could see the personality, the soul, if you wish, of a serial killer you would see something like a thalidomide baby, stunted and deformed.

A sociopath, psychopath, antisocial or whatever has no empathy, therefore no remorse. They can mimic normal behavior, but they don't understand it, and often feel superior to those they see as hampered by a conscience. When they prepare to kill thier victims, that is when the mask comes off.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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Ben W.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:04 am

Regardless of your beliefs or lack thereof, don't you at least WISH this would happen to more gloating psychopaths?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbkDJ6cTQw

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:16 am

Teachers are supposed to put out a string, but students follow the string themselves. Freedom of thought--the new cool.


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