SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:51 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:Ok Steve, if your definition of "religious belief" includes any and all beliefs about religion, then by that criteria I would agree with you. But if you're saying that atheism is a form of faith, or that it is non-rational then I just disagree.


Sadly, after all that beautiful but extraneous stuff, it's the former not the latter.
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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:05 pm

Extraneous? My DEEP THOUGHTS are extraneous?

Actually it does me good to preach occasionally and get that rancid impulse out of my system.

Otherwise I might get cranky.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Postby FrankChurch » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:41 pm

Stalin wasn't an atheist; communism is a faith--a fractured view of actual socialism, a system that has never actually been tried. Stalin followed the cult of the self, in that became his own god, his own devil. Moods set off whatever part he wanted to set free. Ideology, my friends, is belief.

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Postby DVG » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:09 pm

Not bothering to read all the responses...and why bother? I have always thought that religion and science, considered wholly in the abstract, are ultimately and irretrevably evil, each leading to nothing but destruction, stupidity, hatred and despair. When the choice is between Mengele's collection of blood samples and Osama Bin Laden's desire to prepare the world for a new Caliphate, details about whether or not the atomic bomb trumps the Godess Kali are mere aesthetic window dressing. Each faction has its miserable legion of shitting, puking, insanity-inducing, blood-drinking gargoyles, without hope or humanity, "a vile legion of walking machines, and the lightless, loveless, living dead."

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Postby David Loftus » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:07 am

Well!

Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Postby LarryF » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:37 am

DVG, I hardly think that Josef Mengele is the best representative for the world of science. Nor is Osama bin Laden the best of the religious camp. Abstractly speaking, there is nothing inherently evil about science, which is, simply put, a methodology for investigating the natural world. Call it belief with evidence. Religion, however, calls for belief without evidence, which can lead to all manner of mischief.

What propelled Mengele to commit his ghastly atrocities was his belief in the racist ideology of Nazism--talk about belief without evidence! Then again, he may have simply used that ideology as a justification for satisfying his sadistic impulses. In any event, there's no doubt that many Germans accepted the whole "master race" bullshit, and if some employed "scientific" research to "prove" it, I hardly think that such constitutes an indictment of science.

Science is an investigative tool, and, like any tool, it may be used for purposes either constructive or destructive. Conversely, while it is true that religion may inspire people to do good deeds, I would challenge defenders of the faith to show where, over the past five centuries, faith has produced the advancement in human knowledge and the betterment of the human condition which science has. Science and technology have, in the medical field alone, brought about amazing advances that have saved countless lives.

In a sense, the 9/11 attacks coupled the worst of religion (Islamofascist terrorists) with the best of science and technology (jet airplanes). But the planes were morally neutral in that equation, as is science; it was the hijackers, inspired by their idiotic religious beliefs, who were evil.

Rather than nominating Mengele as being representative of scientists, I would nominate Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov or Stephen J. Gould or Richard Dawkins. Yes, there are bad apples in every barrel; however, the scientific barrel is not spoiled by the few despicable Mengeles found in it.

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Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:06 am

How long until our godly military tires of having to cater to the whims of godless liberal civilians?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070806/ap_ ... religion_3
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Postby LarryF » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:50 pm

Ezra, What's scary about these brass-bedecked boneheads is not so much that they're Christian, but that they're fundamentalist Christians. That's a whole other beastie. They're the ones rooting for Armageddon and the end of the world. Completely certifiable.

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Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:22 pm

Larry, give them time; the Christian right will be the next terrorists soon, especially when they find out Christ is not rapturing their lumpen asses any time soon.

Actually, dropping bombs is how we do terrorism. We just call it counterterrorism, the usual excuse for aggression.

Al Qaeda will never kill as many as we do, in that they are envious.

---------

Read Ferwaz Gerges, he is an expert on the Jihadi movement; because, wow, he actually talks to them; fancy that.

They will never give up until the infidels are out of muslim land. That is the bottom line. We cannot and will not win with aggressive action. The only way to sway the Muslim world is with an example. But, with an example as awful as Shrub, all we can do now is just hope for the best.

Hillary will not save us.

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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:40 pm

Larry wrote

Ezra, What's scary about these brass-bedecked boneheads is not so much that they're Christian, but that they're fundamentalist Christians. That's a whole other beastie. They're the ones rooting for Armageddon and the end of the world. Completely certifiable.

Well you're probably right but that's because no real Christian (defined as someone who actually follows the teachings of Jesus) could ever join the military anyway.

Jesus was a pacifist and for the first three centuries of the "Jesus movement" so were his followers. This was one of the reasons that both their fellow Jews and the Romans hated and feared them. It was only when the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official state religion and began to mass baptise his soldiers that this changed.

Of course that doesn't mean that thousands of our soldiers don't self- identify as Christians but that's only a testimony to the cognitive dissonance possible to the religious believer.

Not much cheek turning going on in Iraq I betcha.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:13 pm

I like to think I have an open mind. I've read a little Richard Dawkins; I may read a little more sometime. But that doesn't mean I will ever have an abortion.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:24 pm

David,

"I will ever have an abortion."

If you were a regular viewer of the cable show JACKASS, I'll bet you would!

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Lori Koonce
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Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:44 pm

Just a question

Can someone explain to me why we have to lump all christians together?

I consider myself both a christian and a liberal. And a lot of my beliefs are the fundie ones I grew up with. But on social causes i'm a bleeding heart, flaming liberal.

But, if you really think about it all the world's major religions, christianity included have the basci precepts:

1. Love God

2. love yourself

and most importantly and over looked

3. Treat others in a manner that you would like to be treated.

It's all pretty simple when ya get down to brass tacks.

IMHO of course, and I expect people like Frank to rip it to shreds, but I'm open minded enough for a constructive conversation on the subject
Life, love and all the chocolate you can eat

Lori

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:58 pm

robochrist wrote:David,

"I will ever have an abortion."

If you were a regular viewer of the cable show JACKASS, I'll bet you would!




JACKASS could make me pregnant. . . . ?
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:07 am

OK - waitaminnit, man! Like, you tryin' t'tell me y'haveta be pregnant first before you can get an abortion?

I don't understand.


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