SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:24 pm

No longer...

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:46 pm

I think we can all stipulate for the record, now and forevermore, that no representatives of any body of thought are free of or have an exclusive patent on assholery. I have known believers who are some of the nicest folks you'd ever want to break bread with and I've known some atheists who were the biggest scumbags on the planet. And vice versa. But this is simply irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not a god exists. A complete distraction.

The essential question remains, What compelling reason do you have to believe that a god exists?

It is a testimony to the privilege that religion enjoys in our society that to many of the faithful simply asking this question often produces scandal and censure. Religion is kept in the walled off part. That which must not be critiqued or even examined. But the genie is out of Pandora's Box. The question has been asked. It will continue to be asked. And to be intellectually (and spiritually!) honest I think the believer has an obligation to respond. And not hide behind offense and hurt feelings. (I might also add that chrisitians are commanded by their Master to respond. See 1 Peter 3:15). You have no obligation to me personally of course. And I have no interest in converting you. I'm simply...curious.

What I'm doing understood properly is providing you with the biggest compliment you'll ever receive. I take your beliefs seriously enough to question them.

-----

Ah the courage of saying what needs to be said even to folks who don't want to hear. This is for you Frank.

In a recent TV interview, former Iraqi MP Ayad Jamal Al-Din called for the establishment of a civil state in Iraq based on man-made law and equality, rather than on Islamic jurisprudence, as the only way to combat ISIS. He further said that there were thousands of mosques in the U.S. and worldwide that incited and prepared people to join ISIS. "Islam has been politicized and is used as a sword," he said in the Al-Iraqiya TV interview, which aired on October 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8coZIHX ... e=youtu.be

I don't know if he's right when he says mosques in the US and Europe are full of this ISIS ideology. Disturbing if true. One thing I do know. Until there is separation of mosque and state there will be no peace.

Ayad Jamal Al-Din has already survived one assassination attempt.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:36 am

When thirty percent of Muslims kill and murder call me.

User avatar
Rick Keeney
Posts: 1099
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:40 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Rick Keeney » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:41 pm

Why not just give us an email address, Frank?

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:29 pm

Talk about thread drift.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Moderator » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:46 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Talk about thread drift.


And what dies the percentage of Muslims committing violence have to do with Science versus Religion?

Frank, this is the fourth thread drift/derailment post I've had to make tonight, and you're squarely at the center of each and every one. You can't make a sound argument, so you toss off grenades or try to make an irrelevant point as if it's pertinent. Four in a night is a record, and not a good or sustainable one.

I'm done. Don't test me.

Back on topic, everyone.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Ben W.
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:07 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:20 am

What compelling reason do you have to believe that a god exists?


Basset hounds.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:31 am

Islam is a religion?

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:32 am

I believe God exists. That's it.

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:35 am

Ben W. wrote:
What compelling reason do you have to believe that a god exists?


Basset hounds.



Which came about through human intervention. So...?

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:33 pm

The Roman Catholic Church just completed a Synod of Bishops at the Vatican focused on on issues of family. Once again we are presented with a familiar template. Pope Francis makes what seem to be conciliatory remarks, in this case about the relationship between gays and the church, and is hailed as bringing about great changes, only to have them rolled back in response to conservative objections.

Poor Pope Francis! He means well but those obstructionist conservatives are holding him back and impeding progress.

Well horseshit.

If you actually looked at the fine print of the original statement, hailed as revolutionary, you would see that apart from the "make nice" language, it was simply more of the same ole. Gays are welcomed as long as they remember that god doesn't approve of their lifestyle and they can only be second class citizens in the church. Even that was too much for the conservatives.

What is truly disheartening is that our media has almost completely swallowed the kool-aid on the idea of Francis as a force of change. Never mind that usually about a week after he makes such statements a Vatican lackey scuttles out and quietly announces that church doctrine will not actually be modified in any way. And the enthusiam with which people fall all over themselves to congratulate the church on its new attitude is rather sickening.

To secularists the idea of recognizing the full civil rights of gays seems to be pretty much a no brainer. Of course we aren't encumbered by hundreds of years of credulity and religious superstition. I will congratulate Francis on one thing. He has the right PR people on the job. What most folks will take from this episode is the eactly the image he is trying to portray.

Change the bigoted doctrine. A smile doesn't make a lie into a truth.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:52 pm

Sure, the President can say he wants to raise taxes but the congress has to pass them. The church has a hierarchy. It has been built in for centuries. Francis alone cannot change it. He is doing the best he can and is somewhat sincere so far.

User avatar
Ben W.
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:07 pm

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:39 pm

Which came about through human intervention. So...?


...so obviously my attempt to introduce a little more levity to an intense thread was for naught.

It's interesting how atheists make wisecracks about believers until the cows come home, but when a person of faith occasionally returns the favour, they become amazingly glum.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:57 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:, What compelling reason do you have to believe that a god exists?


Beer. Funny, I never touched the stuff 'till I got to England. . .

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:52 pm

Humor, it is a difficult concept.

What is interesting, Ben, is how you seem to generalize from a particular example. One post and now all atheists are humorless and glum. I can only assume your animus towards my kind is the result of one unbeliever you once encountered with bad manners. But why do you keep avoiding the real issue?

What compelling reason do you have to believe that a god exists?

Surely "a person of faith" must have some motivating principle?




Beer. Funny, I never touched the stuff 'till I got to England. . .

Oh, no. The Almighty doesn't get credit for that one. The Lawd might have made the barley but it took a human to make the beer.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests