Harlan Ellison on youtube

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:59 pm

...I just saw that post a ways down because I'm tiring of the dumb-shit redundancies:

YOU tell me what ARTISTS feel they benefit from PIRACY.

I guarantee, few if any don't want their work STOLEN. Obtained fairly, that customers might want more and will later buy it, yes; but they don't want it stolen, for chrissake.

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Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:14 pm

robochrist:

I did not claim that artists want their work pirated only that some of them have learned that it has helped them be more successful. It's a healthier outlook to an unhealthy problem. Please read the artists' personal accounts of how they feel they have benefited from piracy that I referenced above. I too am tired of redundancy.

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Postby Moderator » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:19 pm

Jessi wrote:Would someone please clarify a Harlan statement made over on the pav before I post a response to it? Maybe I am missing his real meaning but the comment as I saw it was extremely insulting to every self employed, hard working non-artist out there as though their hard work and persistence was somehow worth less. It was posted on Sunday, July 29 2007 at 14:22:57 (according to my time stamp) in response to MG's comments, second paragraph.


Jessi - Well handled response. If you like, a calm, quiet question put to Harlan to clarify wouldn't be out of place. I know he values anyone who is self-employed -- and I don't think he meant anything by the omission.


Harlan wrote:Unless you have been a self-employed creator of Art (upper or lowercase, as you choose), you cannot know what insecurity, hard-work and persistence can be. My annuity, my legacy, my salary, my buffer against Old Age, Infirmity, Poverty...is my work. That's all of it. Just my work. The operative word is MY. That which belongs to me.


I believe -- and this is only my take (not as an apologist, but as someone who read it earlier and didn't react the way you did) -- that Harlan was reacting to a series of posts about the value of artistic works, in particular the assertion that because he is well off as an artist, Harlan ought to look the other way. Just because he's well off doesn't mean he doesn't -- or can't -- understand what it's like for the millions of starving artists out there.

His error was in the omission of including all self-employed workers -- but his point was relating solely to self-employed artists, IMHO.

But, if it would be something you're truly interested in, post a note simply mentioning that he might have excluded a lot of other workers.

(And now, from a personal perspective, any time I've seen him Harlan has shown a great deal of respect and admiration for several self-employed non-artists. From his mechanic, to a pair of phone guys I sent his way a year ago, to a carpenter doing some work on Harlan's home. And the same goes for working class folks like the hot dog servers at Pink's, his postman, and the tow-truck driver who arrived to cart of Harlan's Packard. And that is what I've seen for myself...)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:27 pm

Barber,

Thank you. That does make me feel less angry about the omission of other classes of workers. You said "Just because he's well off doesn't mean he doesn't -- or can't -- understand what it's like for the millions of starving artists out there." I think that you are probably very close to the truth of his intentions. Again, my thanks for calming my temper before I made a fool of myself on the pav.

From what I've read of Harlan's it didn't seem like he would intentionally belittle the hard work of others but it's the way it first sounded to me. Maybe after a bit I will think of a way to nicely ask him to clarify that small statement for me.

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Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:41 pm

What I'm trying to convey, Jessi, is that it simply doesn't matter: if 80% of the artists out there - regardless of the field - declared that piracy has actually helped their careers, it still wouldn't mean piracy is right.

Whatever zigs and zags can be found on the issue - as they can on ANY - my one focal point has been a guy declaring his "advocacy of piracy". It's NOT a good ethic. It ain't cool to steal someone's stuff. That's all I'm saying. That's all I HAVE been saying. You can make your own points in other tangents of the topic, but said point has been the ONLY point I've been interested in pointing out, and have invariably, redundantly done so.

Hopefully, by now, we get each other's point. Because it's time for the caravan to move on.

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Postby Moderator » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:52 pm

Nice post on the Pav, Jessi.
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Postby paul » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:02 pm

You know me: days late, but dollarsfull.

Carlton, where can i find your writing? I would like to see your work. Do you just write for anyone to print or post (wondering if you have published work in this area); what sites you write to about this (or any) issue? Or do you just write for yourself and others? What kinds of topics do you write about?

I'm curious as to why/how you view your own, personal, work as 'art' = 'information'= 'free', as opposed to, at least myself, "Art is not information, therefore not free."

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Stevie B., you know i loves ya to death, but you'll never rid yourself of "The Apologist" moniker. You are too even-handed. You give credibility to the N+N+Nth degree. Hell, even Eric Martin voted/opined for you as moderator. We need that soft touch; an iron fist in a velvet glove.
Don't ever change. A level head is hard to find. (no jokes, all right?) :wink:
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Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:11 pm

paul,

Just a guess as Carlton said he was done with this. I certainly don't speak for him though (nor do I know him).

If I were him I would be terrified of giving up information to this group about personal work for fear that it would be discredited as not good enough simply because of an unpopular opinion. I wouldn't want it nor would I need it.

I also like to think that most folks here would never do such a thing based on differing opinions. But I am a wary individual by nature. Just a thought in case he really is gone for good.

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Postby LarryF » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:26 pm

Jessi,

I am certain that Harlan didn't mean to diss other workers in the remark you noted. Just off the top of my head I recall him writing that, among other things, he worked as a carny, drove a dynamite truck, and was a brick mason. Harlan's written about how he regards writing as a craft like any other, and has stated that he wanted to disabuse people of the notion that what he and his literary peers do is something accomplished on a "faraway mountaintop."

My educated guess is that Harlan has respect for anyone who cares about what he or she does, and who does it well. (Unless, that is, the person in question is a member of the Bush administration.)

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Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:50 pm

LarryF

My thoughts are coming around to that exact way of thinking. :] I too had read about the myriad jobs HE has held and realize how wrong the sentence sounded coming out of his head. I guess I just want him to know how awful it sounds especially for someone not familiar with what he has done. And apparently for someone like me who knows.

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Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:47 pm

rich wrote:Ravenscroft, you threaten anyone else on here and I'm telling. If Barber doesn't want to tell you to shut the fuck up with the insults and threats, how 'bout I do so? Please threaten me. Please.

Um... okay.

You're going to the Fourth Circle of Hell for all of Eternity, with the rest of the nose-pickers.

Okay? I can work something up if you want.

Hope it helps.

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Postby paul » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:49 pm

Jessi, Steve is correct. It believe wholeheartedly that it was Harlan's intent to speak only of artists and their work. He was not mentioning the millions of other jobs, because those were not in question.

Carlton may have said he was 'done with this', and you may not know him, but I truly believe he will never give credentials, or at least, a taste of his worth. You need not speak of or for him.

[It is true, many of us here are more or less awed and intimidated by Harlan's oeuvre. It is also true that many of us are of a lesser output/different field/less-likely-to-promote-our-work/-here. Many have similar fields, or even much different fields, and get along splendidly. And still many wish to say hello, to be a part of what passes for internet verbiage (I cannot call it conversation), just to be a part and say hello.
I myself write, and attempt to get published (a few times, so far), but i also have an actual job, and could not, in any shape or form, be considered owing my comfort and existence to my writing. I simply do what i need to, and sell what i can. It keeps me out of the college towers with a high-powered military rifle. (I'm fine, by the by. :) Just saying.]

Rarely is it that one who speaks so much reducible nonsense can back up said opinions with non-reductionist logic of work in said realm of discussion. I just want to read what Carlton has wrote. Not as a judgement against what Harlan has written- that would be ludicrous. But just to read what he has written for a more solid grasp on where he has been, where he is going as an artist. What topics he considers important, be it musical (that seems a given), political, or any other thing. I'd like to hear his voice, where he's coming from. I'm assuming he's a man, with a name like Carlton, but we've been admonished not to take anything for granted, so i'm just using the masculine as a generality.

Jessi, whatever job you hold (or used to hold), however it makes you feel, it is making you money. That is a good thing, however crass you perceive it. Myself, Steve B., especially Chuck M., hell, many others here would tell you the lives we must lead should be viewed as Not What We Want, but What We Will Have.
You can, and will do better.
Courage.
The medium is the message.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:33 am

"I just want to read what Carlton has wrote...just to read what he has written for a more solid grasp on where he has been, where he is going as an artist."

...ASSUMING there is anything TO that; sure as hell wasn't evident here, in either prose or expulsions.

My honest skepticism and final cheap shot for the night.

(N'just to show I've me guts, I'll be revealin' here me OWN pseudonyms from th'chapters of eons past:

Robbie Bancock
The Ritz
Needles Flannigan
The Dashing Dickwad of Devonshire
RVG
Chief Passing Gas
and, of course, most recently, Robochrist.

Now all my evil secrets are out, my alternate guises sheared)

rich

Postby rich » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:38 am

Steve B.,
I don't believe I've ever said you were too restrictive. What I find annoying is that you immediately tell newbies to not insult, etc., when there apparently has been no insult directed toward anyone, yet when Dumbass Ravenscroft insults, which he does in just about every dumbass post of his, nothing is said.

Ravenscroft,
Yeah. Very witty.

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Postby Moderator » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:12 am

rich -
I tell everyone who is new to posting that I'd like to keep a civil tone on the board. It's part of the "HI! Welcome to Webderland" message. It's pre-emptive, not reactive, and more importantly it also should be sending a message to the regulars -- who are, for the most part, pretty polite and rational.

Is everyone going to listen? Of course not.

Can I do much about it? Yeah. once it becomes an open flame war, you betcha. But until it reaches that point all I can do is remind and ask people to keep it real without sounding like an old granny with a spoon in her hand.

Part of the issue, and I'll admit it, is that we know the habits of regular posters. You, Rob, Ravenscroft, Loftus, etc, etc, etc. I know that Rob likes to stir the pot. So do you upon occasion. But the good news is that it's a familiar "name" and so we -- you and I -- give them a wider berth than we do newbies who come in guns ablazing. That's human nature.

Witness the Paula/Rubin fiasco. Under the guise of a newbie, Paula began posting some pretty nasty messages here and on the Pav -- some of them squarely directed to me. The others -- one of whom I've agreed, as a courtesy, not to mention by name -- joined in, again under a false name. And on the attack.

If you, or Jim Davis, or Mark G, or Ravenscroft or Loftus or Cramer or anyone of the regular posters made the same, word for word, posts I would have taken it offline and found out what the true issue was. But with "Billy Rubin" the attempts to do that were met with even more vitriol.

So, newbies get a hearty welcome with a request to keep it real. Regulars, like Rob, sometimes get out of hand and once there's a complaint I make a point. Same with newbies.

Unless I am forced to consistently remind regulars to watch their behavior every time I welcome someone to the fold, that's the way it's going to stay. I kind of figure you guys already know this.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


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