Harlan Ellison on youtube

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:51 pm

"Your status as an artist isn't really the issue here, however -- your position that another person's intellectual property is open to freeform theft is."

And since Steve brought it up, EVEN if we WERE to play THAT card, I'd still be willing to wager the Philosopher's Stone, 'M', that if you'd been making a living as an artist - RELYING entirely on your work and copyrights for your income - you'd be a bit more concerned about anyone spouting off with, "I advocate piracy".

In other words, we're not talking about what it is to be an artist, but the condition of surviving as an artist. Piracy does not help anyone trying to do that.

So, that's yet another argument of yours that is total bullshit.

CarltonM
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HAHAHAHAHAHHA I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby CarltonM » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:10 pm

Yo!

"I questioned that you're a writer given the evidence that you don't seem to worry too intently upon the way you present your craft. You may indeed be someone who runs spellcheck or has a solid editor -- but blaming it upon this being a posting board on the net is a lazy way out."

Its not that I don't see them, I don't care. And the one's I don't catch because I'm not worried about... I don't care... cause I'm not worried. I'm not blaiming anyone. I'm just saying since this is a board, I don't care, don't type as carefully and etc.

If my artistry doesn't matter... then why did you bring it up again? HAHA.

Harlan makes typos... uhoh..... HAHA.

"I will note, for posterity, that I've been on the net much longer than you in all likelihood"

You don't know that. And also you understand the mechanics of webdesign, but not the social aspects.

"You're confusing the new distribution methods for music and video with permission to steal it "
For example: Moby's quote had to do with electronic distribution, not with free file sharing. "

You are going to hit your forehead and say DOH! HA HA HA HA HA I WIN YOU LOSE!!!!!

http://www.moby.com/node/4857

QUOTE FROM MOBY:

"i do not support the efforts of the riaa regarding file-sharing. i didn't support them when they cracked down on internet radio (which really wasn't even their stated domain). and i don't support them now that they're cracking down on people who've engaged in file-sharing.i know for a fact that a lot of people first heard my music by downloading it from napster or kazaa. and for this reason i'll always be glad that napster and kazaa have existed.i'm sure that this is not a very popular thing for me to say, but it's the truth"

". i can understand prosecuting people who copy and sell cd's, but i can't understand prosecuting someone because they love music and have a few illegally downloaded songs on their hard-drive.thanks,moby"

HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!

CarltonM
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Postby CarltonM » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:12 pm

In the immortal words of the Blue Beetle:

"BWA HA HA HA HA"

CarltonM
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Postby CarltonM » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:13 pm

MOBY:

"stop persecuting people who are music fans. people who engage in file-sharing are people who like music. you can't make people feel guilty about loving and listening to music. the record companies need to see people who engage in file-sharing as music fans and not as criminals. and then they need to try to convince people to spend a little bit of money for music (with added value) rather than downloading it for free.

record companies and rich musicians complaining about file-sharing rings terribly false with most people. i mean, how can a 14 year old who has an allowance of $5 a week feel bad about downloading music produced by multi-millionaire musicians and greedy record companies?"

http://www.newmediamusings.com/blog/200 ... ce_to.html

Jessi
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Location: Idaho

Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:41 pm

robochrist:
"In other words, we're not talking about what it is to be an artist, but the condition of surviving as an artist. Piracy does not help anyone trying to do that."

Artists may not benefit from piracy but they do benefit from name recognition and posting their own work for free. It seems to me that it's a bit of a lemons and lemonade thing. Eric Flint of the Baen Free Library http://www.baen.com/library has posted at this web address http://baen.com/library/palaver.htm a wonderful bit discussing both piracy and posting works for free. He is an established author as are many of the authors who use the service. They are using free distribution to gain an audience they might not have had otherwise and hopefully by doing so eliminating the desire of some to illegally copy the work elsewhere.

As Flint says: “Income doesn't derive from preventing theft, it comes from making sales. A certain amount of loss due to theft is simply one of the overhead costs.” He expands much more eloquently on this subject than I can.

There is also a letter from Janis Ian at http://baen.com/library/palaver11.htm talking about her personal experiences during the Napster era and how she did benefit from the people who illegally downloaded her songs and subsequently looked her up and bought her music. It doesn't make it right to illegally copy music but at least she has grown past any anger she had by realizing that she made money from it.

There are also many testimonials on the Baen site from people who use the free service and still buy real books. I urge you to read and try to understand that piracy need not be the absolute evil that some of you feel it is. (Though I think profiting from someone else's work is about as low as low can be) So the idea that serious artists who make a living from their work wouldn't post their work for free is again and again debunked.

Authors have the right to choose whether or not to post any of their own works. They also have the right to react negatively to others illegally copying that work. But I wish they would take that illegal act and turn it to their own benefits by realizing that demand for digital media is here and growing and there are profits to be had. Get mad at piracy but please, do something positive for those who thrive on the availability of digitally available art rather than simply repeating that piracy is bad over and over again.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:15 pm

"Artists may not benefit from piracy but they do benefit from name recognition and posting their own work for free."

Jessi,

...and that happens to be something I pointed out earlier. Wouldn't you say your point is kind of irrelevant, given the very obvious difference between "piracy" - which has been the ENTIRE issue here, and providing some of your work for free - a choice made by the artist, not the consumer - for the reasons of self-marketing?

Part of my argument to CarltonM was precisely THAT.

Jessi
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Location: Idaho

Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:22 pm

roboschrist:

As you'll see later down my post there are very serious artists out there who openly claim they have benefited from the piracy of their own work.

CarltonM
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Postby CarltonM » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:24 pm

Rob, you aren't following his argument either.

One doesn't benifit right away but makes up (and more)with later gains:
=========

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:
robochrist:
"In other words, we're not talking about what it is to be an artist, but the condition of surviving as an artist. Piracy does not help anyone trying to do that."

Artists may not benefit from piracy but they do benefit from name recognition and posting their own work for free. It seems to me that it's a bit of a lemons and lemonade thing. Eric Flint of the Baen Free Library http://www.baen.com/library has posted at this web address http://baen.com/library/palaver.htm a wonderful bit discussing both piracy and posting works for free. He is an established author as are many of the authors who use the service. They are using free distribution to gain an audience they might not have had otherwise and hopefully by doing so eliminating the desire of some to illegally copy the work elsewhere.

As Flint says: “Income doesn't derive from preventing theft, it comes from making sales. A certain amount of loss due to theft is simply one of the overhead costs.” He expands much more eloquently on this subject than I can.
========

Rob... This is the guy you defending.... a man who considers youtube equal to rape. How sick. A man who thinks copyrights are worth more than humanity. Its not a moral attitude the new generation agrees with.

Jessi
Posts: 33
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Location: Idaho

Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:28 pm

robochrist:

Whether or not any of us think that artists truly have or have not profited is why I said "Artists may not benefit..." rather than they absolutely do or they absolutely do not. Some artists feel it is absolutely theft and others see piracy in a more positive light hence my previous post about lemons and lemonade. I choose to side with the artists who recognize they may benefit from the act.

CarltonM
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Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:18 am

Postby CarltonM » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:51 pm

"Sir, are you aware that racism is a horrific plague on humanity, that many have died its victims, and that by stealing the name of a civil rights luminary AND altering a well known saying so that black ends up in a subservient position to white you are trivializing the suffering and loss of literally millions of good men and women? All in the service of parsing someone's comments online in search of an excuse to express phony righteous indignation?"

I make a typo and you call me a racist? I'm hispanic and the last person I had a fling with was black.

You call me racist, yet make a statement that assumes Im white.

You guys are weirdos. Bye. What a moron.

MG is not revered only by blacks by the way. He doesn't belong to any particular race. no hero is race specific. none. i question your values.

the people harlan and other listed who copywrite their names are either fictional (Batman isn't real....) or of questionable moral character (Ms Stewart). Again, you need to look at your values.

harlan said rape is the same as youtube. its not.

Enjoy your HE insanty. What a bunch of sycophants. heil harlan heil harlan.

Last post for ever.

Cary Bleasdale
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:50 am

Postby Cary Bleasdale » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:50 pm

Last post for ever.

Heigh ho the witch is dead!

Whoops...how anti-pagan of me.

Anyway,

What this all boils down to is this: It's Harlan's stuff.

Period. He can say yes or no, within the law (IE Fair Use)

Anything beyond that is masturbatory. His work, his say. If someone think's that he's a dick, fine. If they want to bitch and moan all day about how it isn't faaaaaaaiiiiir that the people of more talent aren't sharing their work with the rest of us, fine. Law's still on Harlan's side.


Actually, a lot of the pro-piracy people remind me of the more irritating "Legalize It!" people. They argue for HOURS every nuance of every detail of the law. But you know what? When you're busted with a pound of high class BC Bud, then the judge don't give a damn about all your arguments.

But I wouldn't go around arguing that because YOU obviously know how to handle his materials better than the writer himself. Because he has fifty very sucessful years of raw experience, not to mention a team of very smart lawyers guarding his affairs.

So I don't think he needs your advice that badly.

Oh, one more thing, on the whole "Harlan's a dick" issue.

I've visited here, off and on, for a couple years now. And I have never seen Harlan be rude to someone who didn't offer severe provocation.

What's more, I myself have asked him questions I know he has to have heard a million times, and have even asked for the use of his copyrighted material, and he has never ONCE failed to be utterly gracious and kind. So I'll take the weight of personal experience over the "Comic book guy said Ellison once was mean to his third cousin's sister's ex-boyfriend." any day.

Yrs truly,

Cary Bleasdale

LarryF
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:36 pm

The Devil and a Dung Beetle

Postby LarryF » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:07 pm

CarltonM,

If true that you're posting here no more, well, I guess we'll somehow survive the loss of your charming self. What I object to about you, sir, is not the arguments you made about copyright, but rather your rude attitude in the Pavilion. It may have escaped your notice, but we who regularly visit the Pavilion consider that area to be a part of the Ellison domicile, in which part we comport ourselves as more-or-less civil human beings.

I daresay you would not visit a person's home and, face-to-face, mouth off the way you did in cyberspace. And this is what I find so offensive and cowardly about Internet communication: it encourages people to be rude and crude, to satisfy the base craving for flame wars, to insult and defame. You are a perfect example of this sad tendency. Please notice that I've not said anything in this missive that I would not say directly to your face.

As to your racial persuasion: who gives a fuck? For all I know--or care--you're the spawn of a dalliance between the devil and a dung beetle. In any event, you're gone now, and we're the better for it. Don't let the door smack your ass on the way out.

Jessi
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Postby Jessi » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:45 pm

Would someone please clarify a Harlan statement made over on the pav before I post a response to it? Maybe I am missing his real meaning but the comment as I saw it was extremely insulting to every self employed, hard working non-artist out there as though their hard work and persistence was somehow worth less. It was posted on Sunday, July 29 2007 at 14:22:57 (according to my time stamp) in response to MG's comments, second paragraph.

I know I should ask HE to clarify but things are already touchy over there and I would like to try and keep things calm. So, if someone else who is a little more in tune with Harlan could offer me some reasonable explanation to that comment (just that one paragraph, the rest of it I'm with Harlan) then I will keep my mouth shut over there.

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robochrist
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Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:51 pm

...since when does a racist have to be WHITE?

But, no, M, sweetest, love of our loins - we never thought you or anyone else here is or was ever racist.

I implore you not to leave - as I'm sure you won't anyway, in one pseudonym or another - for we need moronic comments here now and then to keep us entertained, to remind us of how idiotic so many Net dwellers truly are, to remind us that there IS no hope for the human race, and to give us something to do when the routine here and in our homes becomes too monochrome.

We WANT you. We NEED you. We NEED that contingent that will just never get it.

...and, we're, in fact, a LOT weirder than that lone neuron you think with dares suspect!

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Postby Moderator » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:51 pm

Carlton -
Forgive my absence, I was out.

(I understand the social dynamics of the web just fine. You haven't a clue as to what I do for a daily living, so really any suggestion that I don't "get it" presupposes an awful lot. I don't know what you do for a living, though these last few posts suggest you might be in school -- not insulting you at all, but the references you make seem to suggest you're still relatively unaware of the business world and think anyone over 20 couldn't possibly understand the "social dynamics" of the net, while only younger people "get it".)

As to Moby's statements: This is a pointless argument, since the very quotes you present from Moby indicate you're not following his own sentiment.

You're taking the position that since he feels that fans ought to be encouraged to change their consumption habits from stealing the music to buying it, instead of being prosecuted for it, as an assertion on his part that the stealing itself is okay -- and that's not at all the argument he makes. Reread your own posted quotes. (You stated you're no longer commenting, but I'm certain you're still reading this thread.)

And Moby is, by far, a small minority. The vast majority of recording artists are greatly disturbed by the filesharing trend. Yeah, the labels are a lot MORE disturbed, but artists see the label "well" drying up, forcing many of the recordings to be self-financed, instead of paid for by the labels. Moby may be fine with paying for his own, but it's a huge financial risk for a garage band to pay for all of their own records without the possibility of being picked up by a large distributor.

(Any reasonably well produced cd is going to start at more than $10K for studio time, an engineer, tracking, mastering, artwork, and a thousand cds -- and that's if the musicians are all playing for free. A well-produced cd is more likely to cost tens or hundreds of thousands to produce and market. The only costs that change with online or digital distribution are the physical cd production costs -- which are much less than the studio work.)

Last time I'm going to say this: stealing music (or posting, illegally, other copyrighted material) is the exact same crime as selling duplicate dvds on the streetcorner, or stealing M&Ms from Target. It's not a big deal, you may say, but (and here's the crux) it's still a crime. And saying there should be exceptions for the crimes just because they're little ones doesn't make any sense from a social, legal or business perspective. None.

That's the argument of someone who thinks they deserve something from society, instead of the other way around
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


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