LACONIV

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Earl Wells
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Postby Earl Wells » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:02 pm

people are arrested all the time for doing what Harlan did


I don't think this is true, but I realize we are talking about different things. That is, I'm sure that frequest arrests are made for sexual battery, but is it routine for people to be arrested for sexual battery in the context of public performances? It seems to me that the context is important.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:08 pm

Thanks Cookie.

Earl Wells
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Postby Earl Wells » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:27 pm

Eric_Martin wrote:I'm finding that my reaction to what some people are saying on the Pavilion is far stronger than to what Harlan did or did not do to Connie Willis.

Josh Olson's last post was, in my opinion, appalling in its aggressiveness and insult. I know he's got a project with Harlan right now, but he's still relatively new to the community, and to go off on the "house apes" (which I took as a direct attack on the regulars here) was completely out of line.

Olson will very likely be gone one month after The Discarded airs and we finish praising him for it. In the meantime, the regulars, the people who keep the website alive, who go to the Cons, who pay for the books, and who have morally supported Harlan through some of the drier years in the past decade will still be here.

Those people need to have their say, no matter what their take on the issue is, and they should feel that they have a right to say it. Tim Richmond, who almost never posts, does NOT have a right to suddenly march in and tell people to "shut the fuck up."

These guys are not doing Harlan any favors. They are coming in and insulting the core of his readership and fandom, using their own "prestige" as leverage. They are also damaging any credibility the Pavilion might have as an objective discussion of and with Harlan Ellison.


Nonsense. Olson & Richmond were reacting strongly to strong statements made by a few members of a community representing a fraction of Ellison's readership. Webderland regulars, familiar with its history, are in no position to object when someone reacts strongly to, for example, statements that someone committed a sex crime. Flame wars have been ignited in Webderland over statements far less incendiary. Whether Olson & Richmond are "outsiders" is irrelevant. How many posts do they have to make before they can say "house apes" or "shut the fuck up" or "so-and-so committed a sex crime"? How many more do I have to make?

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:27 pm

Eric_Martin wrote:Tim Richmond, who almost never posts, does NOT have a right to suddenly march in and tell people to "shut the fuck up."



Oh, he has the RIGHT, all right. Rights are wide open here on the electronic frontier.

But others have the right to find his behavior out of line and boycott purchase of his book. (I won't be participating in that pyrrhic maneuver; just as I will probably continue to see the occasional Mel Gibson and Tom Cruise movie, read Asimov -- what are they going on about with him? -- and purchase Ellison collectibles; ya think they'll temporarily go down in price?)

A hypothetical question for you and Jim and rich, especially: Since you argue that this is a public issue for suitable debate, does there ever come a point at which Ms. Willis's continued apparent public silence, allowing the hue and cry to go on and on about Harlan (good, bad, and ugly), and not even acknowledging that he has offered an apology, whether adequate or no, becomes a kind of cruelty in itself?
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

Eric Martin
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Postby Eric Martin » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:11 pm

Yes, Willis should have commented by now. No question about that, and I feel bad for Harlan that she hasn't.

As for public debate, I have only supported the need for Webderlanders to talk about this amongst themselves. I have not contributed to nor cited any blogs.

Earl, it's not so much what those guys feel as to how they said it. They both have lowered the level of discourse with their obscenity and insults.

I won't be posting on the Pavvy anymore unless I have something to say directly to Harlan. The house apes can have it.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:12 pm

There's one person we didn't even take into account here: Susan. She may be hurt by our comments.

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Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:28 pm

(Yes, hypocritically breaking my vow of silence)


Frank, I don't think there's any question.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:31 pm

Harlan and Susan are like oil and water. I am really curious about how they hooked it up? Loftus, you know Harlan, how do those opposites attract?

Anthony Ravenscroft
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Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:52 pm

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Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:08 pm

Rick Wyatt <rick@rickwyatt.com>
- Thursday, August 31 2006 15:54:25
Shut the fuck up? No, how about MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
Man, I hate to play to form and pull the "Rick finally comes in and foams at the mouth" bit, but GOD JESUS FUCK GHANDI KHAN CHRIST ALMIGHTY LIZARD KING SHITSTICK SUNDAY:

The question of the spectacle presented by Harlan at the awards is one matter. His personal relationship over many years with Connie Willis and whatever occurs with them as far as conversation, apology, penance, whatever, is quite another.

In the matter of the first, as it occured in a public gathering of interest to fandom, it seems appropriate that there be some discussion of the appropriateness of his actions. Neither does it surprise me that that discussion here falls mostly down the usual divisions of either blind worship or self-righteous indignance. It also seems appropriate that Harlan explain his public actions here, which he's done. If people aren't happy with THAT explanation, well, fire torpedo two.

In the matter of the second, what personally passes between Ellison and Willis is does quite simply not fall within the domain of any dilettante who would comment on it here rather than discuss it with him in person. What Harlan is telling you Rich, and you Jim, and even you Cindy, much as I love you all, is not that he owes or does not owe Connie Willis anything - or that she is or is not offended - but that it's none of your fucking business. He is telling you it's between him and her and kindly butt the fuck out.

Sexual assault? Jesus. Do you people actually listen to what you're saying or does it just spew from the Kneejerk Lobe of the Brain? The ability of people to take outraged offense on behalf of someone they don't even know, or to make sweeping character statements based on some event they heard about second or third or fourth hand, is just plain amazing.

And to try to shellac this up into some bellweather event, some Waterloo, some rallying point for change within the industry? This was just some stupid shit pulled by a septagenarian at a sci-fi convention that probably seemed like a good idea at the time and now seems obviously regrettable to just about everyone involved. It's a footnote. Hell, even if it was bad as the worst recountings, it might not break the top five on the list of rude or stupid crap I've PERSONALLY seen Harlan pull. You are talking about a man who could assrape a nun on the White House lawn during the easter egg roll without doing significant further damage to his lifelong reputation for falling prey to occaisional bouts of rudeness, rage, highly insensitive insouciance, and other types of general dickery pickery and fuckery puckery.

By all means, please blather on about what you find acceptable and unacceptable, and how Harlan's heinous hee-hawings have your panties bunched up through your GI tract all the way to the duodenum. Or how he's beyond reproach because he fought for the ERA and marched in Selma Alabama and was the only person quick enough to give Gerturde Stein the Heimlich when she choked on that fish taco. Because I am SURE he's on the edge of his seat wondering if the INTERNET finds him ACCEPTABLE.

But leave the matter of Connie and Harlan to Connie and Harlan.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

Eric Martin
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Postby Eric Martin » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:31 pm

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:41 pm

Never having tangled with Mr. Ravenscroft or been irritated by anything he's written on this board before (that I can recall), and firmly convinced I was not included in those to which he directed his outburst above, I nevertheless feel compelled to say:

You need to go back to your writing, sir. I sense a terrible need inside you to be productive that is being wasted here. Just because other folks' discourse annoys you, this is no reason to call for the whole shebang to be shut down.

That's little more that the cranky liberal flip side of conservative fascist censorship.

Learn to take yourself a little less seriously, sir. And lighten up on the "humor."
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Postby Eric_Martin » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:59 pm

Since we are a moderated board, despite my own reservations about that, I have asked the moderator to please edit Mr. Ravenscroft's personal attacks, and to remove my pissed-off response in its entirety.

David, thanks for the voice of reason. I'm done with this thread now, for despite my own intentions, I reduced myself to someone else's hostility.

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Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:03 pm

In the interests of continuity I have removed the posts but left the boxes. I agree that both post and response were too far over the edge.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:08 pm

Wow. A 200 percent jump in the rate of censorship on the board. Things is gettin' fiercesome 'round hyar.


-- Pucki-, oops, smilingly . . . Tonstant Weader
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus


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