Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Oh, and Nason, the Ottoman empire did not expel all their jews. I notice the expulsion didn't stop us from sucking up to Saudi Arabia in 1947.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:18 pm

FrankChurch wrote: First Glenn Greenwald, then Jeremy Scahill, now Matt Taibbi are all going to a new media site. Odd since Barber and Doug always talk about how great our press is. Then why are the three top journalists going bye bye?


Because they can make more money?
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:20 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Ukraine's leader was democratically elected, you didn't see that in the Soviet Union.


No, you didn't. But there's some controversy regarding whether the election was indeed fair, and again: you're favoring dictatorial government over the will of the people?
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:57 pm

Relax, Frank -- I didn't vote for de Blasio!

The reason I and others keep going back to 1948 is because that's when the Palestinians became refugees. And the year before, the Palestinians rejected the British Mandate's offer to set up a binational state of Jews and Arabs in which the Arabs would be a clear majority. (You didn't know about that, did you?) Then, later that year, the Palestinians rejected the UN's offer of a state of their own alongside a Jewish state, on the very land (plus more) they want now. And in 2000, Arafat rejected Ehud Barak's offer of a state in Gaza and on the West Bank with a Palestinian capital in Jerusalem -- and followed his rejection by launching a second bloody intifada against Israel. Way to go, Yassir.

Someone once said that the Palestinians have rejected the offers of a state more times than any people in history. They'll still be killing Israelis and crying to the world that they're stateless long after we're all dust.

By the way, the Ottoman Empire wasn't in a position to expell anyone in 1948, since it had been broken up in 1918 when Turkey lost WWI.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:58 pm

Another correction: That should be "expel."
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:40 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Mark, your statement about colonialism would hold water if the state in question didn't have a special status in history and among our press.

I would never tell an American Indian that we should not discuss the stealing of their land because taking land is a historical current.


Of course not, but I'm also not going to advocate giving it back because of something done a century before I was born. I say that because the comparison does not hold up to parity.

What does the status have to do with it? We're talking about Ukraine elsewhere---you do know it was a country invented by the Viennese Court and intended to be ruled by one of Franz Joseph's nephews, didn't you? It, too, has a "special status" in that it didn't exist until just before WWI and was comprised of people moved there from the Balkans (I believe, I'd have to check that last). Transplants to both get them out of the Austro-Hungarian sphere and yet keep them beholden to it.

The current president of Ukraine won his election the same way W did here in 2000.

Why oh why does the fact that Israel was the one attacked never make any difference to you? If Canada attacked us (ridiculous, I know, but let's pretend) and we kicked their asses and pushed into their territory, we might well keep some of it. Why wouldn't that be right? (Mexico did indulge cross border attacks back in the day, America did kick their ass, and we kept a chunk of their country.)

If you want to lay blame for something, you can blame the French and British, particularly the British whose responsibility Palestine was and who when Israel was created managed the transition in the most offensively ham-fisted manner imaginable and then left all the Arabs all the guns. I can concur that Israel is treating the Palestinians today in execrable fashion, but the Palestinians have been poorly served by their leaders (who till recently have signed onto the whole "drive them into the sea" program, rattling sabers at the expense of their peoples' well being). Agreements have been on the table repeatedly and repeatedly it has been the Palestinians who have walked away, shit on the carpet, and pissed in the soup. And all along, the Arab states raining disdain on Israel have made no move to alleviate the Palestinian suffering in any material way. All they seem to want to do is give them guns.

Yes, Israel is being an asshole, but they're being assholes to people who keep biting any hand that Israel reaches out.

So anyway, why does their "special status" change the fact of what I originally said? Does it really matter how a country is invaded and colonized?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:47 am

Looks like they have a peace deal. Here's hoping it is ok.

Violence and mayhem would not get anything here.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:48 am

Nason, until you stop dealing with mythology you will be stuck.

Self esteem is great, superiority complexes are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad news.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:52 am

I can now defend my grammar troubles:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... 68485.html

Chomsky, on why we like Zombies:

http://www.alternet.org/noam-chomsky-wh ... ng-zombies

What won't they ask my man.

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:00 pm

Frank, so why is it okay for you to quote Benny Morris approvingly, but when I do I'm "stuck in mythology"?
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:50 pm

- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:01 pm

The socialist government cemented its near-monopoly on broadcast media [during] Chavez's14-year-rule, and social media have been crucial for young opposition activists as they organize and exchange information on deaths, injuries and arrests.


That's socialist paradise for you.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:15 am

Venezuela has massive free speech, jus sayin.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:19 am

Don't forget that Ukraine welcomed the Nazis back in the day. Many of the protesters are similar.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:41 am

FrankChurch wrote:Venezuela has massive free speech, jus sayin.


Unless what you say has the potential to actually change things. Then you get thrown out of the government, pushed into a corner, and busted for being a disturber of the piece.

What is your love affair with Chavez? Do you know how much Venezuela is on the hook for with foreign bankers, just so he could keep prices low and the populace happy?


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