Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:40 pm

we're coming at this from completely alien positions and cannot really understand the others' point of view.



No question, though I have to say, because it's been bugging me, that during the Hiroshima dust-up a few months ago, I actually took great pains to understand Frank's position, and he wouldn't grace me with a response either way. By then he'd moved on to other hobbyhorses. Hit and run indeed. . .

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:05 am

It's not my position, it is history's position.

At least, the new, better history.

I get your points, but that's how liberals are now justifying the killer drones. States should not kill, that's the bottom line.

Obama should send Chuck Hagel and Johan Galtung to Iran to talk directly to the mullahs. Talk, no bang bang.

-------

Angelinos, how is your media reporting the Dorner cop killings? Are they mentioning that he was a whistle blower exposing racism in the force?

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:24 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Are they mentioning that he was a whistle blower exposing racism in the force?


Don't go there Frank. Just don't go there.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:41 pm

Democracy Now went there, so I may just go there...

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:44 pm

It's a big story on the left this week, I just want to mention that.

And, hi Ezra.

-----------

Did I mention the major empirical study on file sharing and stealing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Oberholzer-Gee

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf

Seems there is very little effect of downloading to loss of cd profits. As I have said, most people who get a taste and like want to buy.

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:00 pm

Whether I read the news from a right perspective or a left, the news is just plain scary. I worry for the children that will inherit this world.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:10 pm

FrankChurch wrote:It's not my position, it is history's position.

At least, the new, better history.



Oh I see, you can change history to suit your needs! How silly of me to believe in facts!

No Frank, you never got my points. You took pains to avoid them. You had no response for them. You showed staggering ignorance of many basic historical facts, but still have the gall to claim you know "history's position". You insist like any good Stalinist that you have the monopoly on Objective Truth. Remember Barber's points on blanket statements and nuance. Remember also such things as context and hindsight. . .

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:27 pm

Steve, the Oliver Stone doc on the subject is available now on youtube. See Night and Fog. A good reason to be against violence of any stripe. We just need to stop this endless cycle of evil.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:42 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Angelinos, how is your media reporting the Dorner cop killings? Are they mentioning that he was a whistle blower exposing racism in the force?


Yes it' s been mentioned. Several times in fact. But we tend to all agree it's heavily outweighed by the evidence of his trial, dismissal and subsequent killing spree which included at least two completely innocent victims.

In reality, several people' have lamented the fact that the import of one good message has been trounced by the actions of a brutal maniacal ruthless killer.

Too bad he didn't stop at whistleblower, Frank. It might have made his perspective a bit more meaningful.

(This is one of those times I referenced in my Alien Perspectives theory. Defending a brutal murderer because he took one good, though now questionable stand is completely lacking in empathy for the victims and outrage of the crowd. To extrapolate from the defense of Dorner, should we also assume Frank really must love Hitler because, as we all know, Hitler painted roses? No...but it is a matter of nuance and degrees, not actual conditions.)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:35 pm

A bit overboard there Barber.

Here's Democracy Now's report on it:

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/11/w ... er_dorners

You can deplore Dorner's actions but want to follow up on what he said about the police misconduct, as well as the fire bombing of the house. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, my friend.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:49 pm

No question -- as you may not have read, I said explicitly the message is lost in the actions. Word for word "lamented the fact that the import of one good message has been trounced by the actions of a brutal maniacal ruthless killer".

The instant someone pulls a trigger on an innocent, they lose all credibility with me. Period.

Racism in the LAPD is nothing new -- remember Rodney King? There were other avenues available to Dorner than going on a killing spree and declaring war on the police.

Elevating a brutal killer to sainthood defies all forms of logic or human decency.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:09 pm

Take Charles Manson. Sure, he had those folks killed, but he was abused as a child and in prison. Led to why he turned out the way he did. Doesn't justify what he did but it is a teachable moment.

Racism in the police department is an issue that gets little press. Whatever starts that conversation is a good thing.

Another comparison is the Unabomber. Sure, what he did was crazy, but his manifesto made many fine points. We can also talk about terrorism, what makes someone strap on a suicide belt. Learning other things from tragedy is how we stop future tragedy.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:36 pm

Nope. No sympathies for either Manson or the Unabomber. Not an ounce. I don't care what their squeals of "damage" are.

Millions of other people go through the same trials without drawing blood. It's a convenient excuse by people who have no other way to explain appalling actions.

This is, essentially, the same argument the NRA is making. "It isn't the guns, it's the damaged psyche responsible for the body count". I call bullshit with them, and I'm calling it here as well.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:52 pm

Doubtless, Manson was damaged as a child'; his time in prison did him no good either. If your point is, Frank, that we could and should build a better prison system, where those criminals who demonstrate capability to be reformed receive treatment while there and help to reenter society when released, then we are in total agreement. But Manson was not that guy. He was very intelligent, even to some degree potentially artistic and talented. Have you read Helter Skelter, seen those poor people's bodies? He chose his evil, he chose a life of crime and drugs. Choices Frank.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:05 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Steve, the Oliver Stone doc on the subject is available now on youtube. See Night and Fog. A good reason to be against violence of any stripe. We just need to stop this endless cycle of evil.


I've read the chapter from the book, and wasn't impressed. There's no such thing as an argument from authority; thus, quotations by themselves, even from generals, mean nothing.

Doubtless, the endless cycle must be broken. But Hitler and Hirohito were the ones who kept it going. Why should evil only be punished if it's American in origin?


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests