Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:17 pm

A member of the UN was interviewed and he said that the UN buildings were "mothballed," meaning that they were empty. It is a breach of their neutrality policy but we have no idea who put them there.

Interesting how they keep mentioning Hamas, but there are other groups who get almost no mentions. They truly are fanatics.

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Barber, the government does not like that it was spied on by Israel, that Netanyahu actually told us to butt out--a real breach of protocol there. We did give him the weapons which makes all of us complicit.

Obama sanctions Putin and Putin looks at the soft hand with Israel and must be thinking there is a double standard. The continued massacre in Gaza is hurting our pr game.

Activism is helping skirt government policy slightly. I do notice the democrats are awful as well. They won't even defend Obama or Kerry.

What breaks me up is the constant death. The pictures are heart breaking. This was a bad day for decency. What sucks is you cannot do a thing, they continue to die.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:27 pm

Noam on why he works at MIT and is glad he lives in America:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IEEQv-CSKM

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:54 am

Finkelstein made a very good point. Israel could have stopped the tunnels from their end very easily without killing anybody. Egypt could have blocked the tunnels too. They wanted to blow up Gaza, make it unlivable, what it is now.

Obama basically gave them the red light with the "Israel has a right to defend themselves" bunk.

I won't hold my breathe on war crimes trials for Bibi.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:56 am

The democrats have shocked me on this issue. They are bloodless. The black community is mute as well. Civil rights should mean for everybody, not just Mr. Garner.

I do hope Al Sharpton doesn't hurt their case.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:18 am

The UN gentleman has a lot of heart. This got to me as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu3lYK6OmMI

I'd hug him if I could.

DanielBarron
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby DanielBarron » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:46 pm

It’s a criminally inhumane act to use any part of Gaza as a launching pad for terrorist attacks on Israel but if they are going to anyway:


Image

Instead:

http://youtu.be/uE3feo_b8Cg

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv- ... ets-571033


Of course, the intent and result of the attacks of Hamas is to kill as many Palestinians and Israelis as possible.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:49 pm

Well I don't think there's much argument that Hamas are a bunch of psychotic death worshiping religious fanatics. They want as many Palestinians killed as possible. The Israelis know that of course. So why are they so willing to oblige Hamas?

The Palestinians hate Hamas. So why are the Israelis driving them back into their arms? I mean where else is there to go? The Israelis have made the cynical calculation that the Palestinians will eventually get so tired of the slaughter that they'll drive Hamas out.

As usual the real victims are the civilians caught in the crossfire. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the Israelis. Choose? My ass.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:38 am

It seems obvious, Hamas can only get what it wants by making the world angry at Israel. Bringing down the military power of Israel on "innocent" Palestinians is the cheapest, quickest way to do that, which means that in their thinking any sacrifice is worth the end result. As well, any end that leaves them without power is likewise unacceptable, so they'll burn with the village---except for those who are safely tucked away in Qatar, lighting the fuse.

The simplest way to deal with this would be for Israel to simply absorb what is left of "Palestine" and make Palestinians citizens, then it becomes a police problem. Israel can't do that without the Jewish population becoming a minority in their own "Jewish State." Of course, there would also be the problem then of being accused of wiping out a country (that doesn't exist and never has as an autonomous entity) and all the opprobrium of colonialism attached.

My mother offered a novel solution this past weekend (she occasionally comes up with something totally unexpected): since a large part of the debate is over who gets Jerusalem, burn it to the ground and salt the earth. No one gets it. End of controversy. Now let's talk about rockets and a real two-state solution.

Like that's gonna happen.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:26 am

There should not be religious states, period. There should not be a Jewish state, there should not be a Muslim state.

States should not exist in a perfect world, but when they do they need to be secular. Secular meaning neutral, but respecting religious difference. Right, Ezra? :)

There is little evidence that Hamas imbeds with civilians. The UN dealt with that, as has Human Rights Watch and the Finkelsteins of the world. Hamas shoots at Israel because Israel shoots at them. That's how war goes.

Occupied people always have more leeway than States. Especially so-called democratic ones.

You forget that a member of the Israel Parliament called Palestinian babies snakes.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:38 am

FrankChurch wrote: There is little evidence that Hamas imbeds with civilians. The UN dealt with that, as has Human Rights Watch and the Finkelsteins of the world. Hamas shoots at Israel because Israel shoots at them. That's how war goes. .


Two things---what else do you call launching rockets from inside neighborhoods? And---Hamas started this one and refuse to honor cease fires, even ceasefires they agree to.

What is it with you that you insist on laying all the shit on Israel? I kn ow you keep saying you don't like Hamas, but every single time you post this kind of thing it is always "Israel does this" or "Israel did that" and never a word about what Hamas actually does. Instead, this insistence that things known are not true,that things which are obvious are not the case.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:33 am

The evidence follows me there, Mark my man. The UN backs it up, Palestinians on the ground, peace activists, reporters, Human Rights Watch--a very pro American group by the way.

Lookie here:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/6/ca ... se_against

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:35 am

In other news: A woman on Saudi television didn't wear a head scarf. Oh, oh, I expect bad things. Will see how that goes. Our wonderful ally, by the way.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:36 am

Mark, John Dugard doesn't even think Israel has a right of self defense. Amazing. You cannot call him biased.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:02 am

FrankChurch wrote:Mark, John Dugard doesn't even think Israel has a right of self defense. Amazing. You cannot call him biased.


He makes a fairly rarefied argument, based on certain assumptions which are legal fictions. If in fact Palestine is "occupied" then why isn't it occupied? It's sequestered, certainly, but that's different. Also, the recognition of Palestine as a separate state is not something even the Palestinians seem to accept. It's special status for court purposes.

I agree that if Palestine were an occupied state in fact, this would be a very different matter, but it would likely be dealt with differently by the Israelis. In my opinion, Hamas is basically a criminal organization---a mafia---and ought to be dealt with accordingly, which means arrests, seizure of assets, prosecutions, and police actions against individuals.

This, however, is exactly where it breaks down since the Palestinians are no just innocent victims of a mafia stranglehold but are willing supporters of Hamas. They were in the streets en masse after the cease fire finally took hold shouting "We won! We won!" You can't have it both ways. This is either action sanctioned by the Palestinian people---and if they are, in fact, a separate state, then that makes this a state of war---or they are being used by Hamas and no one is winning anything. Which is it? How, if they identify with Hamas, are they not part of the tactics Hamas is using?

Which, of course, leads to the bigger problem---how do you tell "innocent" civilians from Hamas when the rockets are coming from within neighborhoods? You keep overlooking that last little bit. Either Hamas is, in fact, using human shields or the Palestinians are willing participants.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:51 am

Boy, Mark, I would walk back that Palestine is not occupied talk. It's internationally understood that Palestine is occupied. Most experts have weighed in. Only certain likudniks says such things.

Israel has a blockade and control over most things. Even Jimmy Carter believes that.

An amazing thing happened yesterday on Morning Joe. A PLO spokesman came on and pretty much sided with Hamas--remember, this is the moderate, Abbas wing. What really was interesting was after he left Scarborough actually defended his defense of Hamas, comparing it to Gerry Adams refusing to condemn members of the IRA, but behind the scenes chilling them out. The IRA and Hamas have a lot in common, beyond skin color, another issue.


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