Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:57 pm

Gwyn, Norway, go to Norway. Socialista heaven Sista.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 pm

Fisk is the top middle east reporter in the world, so there. I will just post more of him. This time on Syria:

http://www.zcommunications.org/losing-f ... obert-fisk

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:45 pm

Hey Frank, Sam Harris has a message for you.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/isla ... liberalism

The ferocious response to my discussion with Rogan about the war on terror has, once again, caused me to worry about the future of liberalism. It is one thing to think that the war in Afghanistan has been an excruciating failure (which I believe), but it is another to think that we had no moral right to attack al-Qaeda and the Taliban in the first place. A significant percentage of liberals seem to hold the latter view, and consider President Obama to be nothing more than a neocon stooge and Islam to be an unfairly maligned religion of peace. I regularly hear from such people, and their beliefs genuinely trouble me. It doesn’t take many emails containing sentences like “The United States and Israel are the greatest terrorist states on earth” to make me feel that liberalism is simply doomed.


--------------------------------------------

Occasionally the truth penetrates the fog...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world ... &ref=world

“How can you compare the dishonoring of the Holy Koran with the martyrdom of innocent civilians?” said an incredulous Mullah Khaliq Dad, a member of the council of religious leaders who investigated the Koran burnings. “The whole goal of our life is religion.”

“To Muslims, and especially to Afghans, religion is much higher a concern than civilian or human casualties,” said Hafez Abdul Qayoom, a member of Afghanistan’s highest clerical body, the Ulema Council. “When something happens to their religion, they are much more sensitive and have much stronger reaction to it.”
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:59 pm

Sam Harris is such a big asshole. "First, do no harm"--what part of this doesn't this motherfucker get? Killing over a million civilians to get the terrorists, yea, real manly there. Yea, you don't have to believe in God to get off on killing.

We didn't have the right to do shit. States only have responsibilites.

International policing is how you get terrorists without killing civilians. Bah.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:40 pm

"conspiracy theorist" is another Gingrichism, like "flip-flop" & "blame-gaming." Always, ALWAYS suspect terms that are used to limit discourse.

I have had deep questions about 9/11 since about... hmm, 8:00 AM Mountain Time, 9/11/2001, as I sat in front of the TV. The fact that I had QUESTIONS, & wasn't willing to accept the prechewed cud already being shovelled over the airwaves, means that I was (& am) equivalent to those poor souls who viscerally fear imminent invasion by Martians.

Rightists -- what a bunch of mouth-breathing ass-hats.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:04 pm

Frank I'm going to hate myself for asking this but where do you get the 'million civilians killed' figure?


------------------------


Conspiracies

Sure, people often work together to further mutual ends. But we glide into happyland when we propose conspiracies in the face of no evidence. The only conspiracy I can detect behind the events of 9/11 was the conspiracy of incompetence on the part of our intelligence and police agencies and the Bush administration.

But other examples abound. Oswald clearly acted alone. And the government ain't hiding evidence of contact with extraterrestrials.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:21 am

The right uses Political Correctness the same way, as a way to stifle left wing ideas. Patriotic correctness, now that in many ways is much worse.

------

Ezra, from the Lancet studies.

Robert Fisk also went into the Iraqi morgue and looked at their computers. There are also something like 3-4 million kids without parents, which must mean that at least one million people are dead. Certainly the sanctions in the 90s killed around 500 thousand.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:49 pm

"Revisionist History" is another one. Never question the official mythology.


I wish another term had been selected to describe "conspiracy theories". It has pretty much made the word "conspiracy", which I'd always found useful, off limits. I'm convinced conspiracies happen all the time - groups of people planning something in secret: why not? Or do I use the term too loosely? Surely every susicion should be judged on the available evidence.

What sets truthers and moon landing hoaxers and Roswell types apart is their rock solid faith in their theories. Their theories never explain anything, but just complicate matters, and they accept counter evidence, lumping it all in as part of the conspiracy.

I believe there was a conspiracy surrounding 9/11: a bunch of shady fanatics met in secret and planned to kill loads of people in a spectacular way. It worked; they suceeded.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:03 am

Their theories never explain anything...

Or they explain everything, which is just as bad.

Our brains are put together by evolution to detect patterns in nature. A side effect is that we can see patterns that don't exist. There's even a classical logical fallacy that says just because B follows A it doesn't mean that A caused B. Or when two events happen together that they necessarily have a relationship.

It makes some people dizzy to think that we live in such a random world that a sniveling nobody who just happened to be in the right place at the right time can take out the most powerful man in the world and change history. No, better to imagine dark forces at work in the shadows. At least then there's a plan and a purpose instead of a mindless nothing.

Is it cheeky to point out that religion is the ultimate conspiracy theory?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:25 pm

This explains why you rarely if ever see Project Paperclip, Operation Mongoose or Cointel-pro mentioned in the major media. The irony is that they still fondle the toddler they call free marketism, which has never existed. Now that's a conspiracy theory.

Elections are bought, wars tend to be fought for power reasons only and advertising is mind control. Truth just scares thee masses.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:02 am

Thank you Frank! Anytime I need an example to make a point about irrationality or incoherent thought processes you're right there to provide it. It's comforting to know you're got my back.

Much appreciated buddy.


heh heh heh
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:58 am

I can back all of it up, pal.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:24 pm

The same Rightists that squeal endlessly about the evils of Political Correctness are the very ones who go into fits when called "anti-abortion."

George Bush's yet-untreated cocaine addiction is only mentioned by "conspiracy theory" crazies... yet the Birthers are "grassroots activists" & "citizen journalists."

Rightists wave absurd sound-bites around as though they're absolute granite-hard Truth (no matter how shallow &/or mis-heard or even outright lies) saying "it's my OPINION so you have to respect it!!!"... yet threaten violence against those with opposing views, no matter how calmly reasoned or verifiably factual.

My uncle the Winger (lovely man, truly, so long as we entirely avoid politics) just sent me a Bill Cosby editorial wherein The Coz rails against Muslims. Problem being that Cosby never wrote any such diatribe. My uncle is now peeved with me not for the first time) because I directed him to both the Snopes article & Cosby's own site.

Though I love Uncle Mike dearly, I swore a decade ago that I would stop treating Rightists as reasonable beings. No more "let's meet in the middle" bullshit, period.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:30 pm

Ezra: a note about Paperclip --

http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-330-defense-secretary/
Boxes 1-186 location: 230/86/46/5
This series consists of personnel dossiers on over 1,500 German and other foreign scientists, technicians, and engineers who were brought to the United States under Project Paperclip and similar programs. Among the dossiers are those on Georg Rickhey, a former official at the Nordhausen underground V-2 rocket factory who arrived in 1946 but who left the United States in 1947 when he was tried (and acquitted) for war crimes by a U.S. military tribunal; Walter Schreiber, who had been instrumental in medical experiments on concentration camp inmates and who fled the United States to Argentina in 1952 after the appearance of a newspaper column about his activities; and, Arthur Rudolph who had been a V-2 project engineer and who left the United States in 1984 following the Department of Justice's discovery of his role in the persecution of prisoners at the Nordhausen factory.

Your tax dollars at work, documented by the Feds.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:35 pm

As for Mongoose:

http://research.archives.gov/description/648748
This series consists of reports, correspondence, memorandums, meeting agendas, and other materials pertaining to Operation Mongoose, the program mounted by the United States government in the early 1960s to destabilize and ultimately overthrow the government of Cuba and its President, Fidel Castro. Topics include policy towards Cuba; outlines of various activities and plans for different phases of Mongoose; contingency plans for the use of military force in the event of an insurrection in Cuba; propaganda operations to be carried out; Cuban trade with Europe and Japan; concerns of the United States government over relations between Cuba and other Latin American countries; Cuban subversion in Latin America; and the activities of anti-Castro Cubans in Central America. Many of the documents originated with the Central Intelligence Agency, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

When a conspiracy theorist is correct, what then?


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