Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

Douglas Harrison
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:26 am

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:49 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:Everyone should have shit job at some point in their youth just for the perspective it gives.

Only one? And just in youth? Geez, I overdid it.

On the plus side, I've got stories. And I finally found a better road. (Is that a breeze I feel?)

D.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:54 pm

All the amazing things coming out from the Wikileaks dump but all our media can yak about is how it hurts us. This is like Soviet media. We should start caring about how other people feel for once.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:43 pm

FrankChurch wrote:All the amazing things coming out from the Wikileaks dump but all our media can yak about is how it hurts us. This is like Soviet media. We should start caring about how other people feel for once.


Most of the assessments of damage that I've read comment on two fronts:

1) It's more damaging to international relations than to actual information revealed. A solid example is the fear of Iranian nukes, expressed by people who assumed they were speaking confidentially and are now redfaced. It is the other countries who are most damaged by the cables, though it serious damages confidential exchanges with the US.

2) More than one independent commentator has noted how excellent the evaluations of the international situation are. One, from Time Magazine, even noted the significant improvement from the "previous" Administration's more biased and lazy reporting -- which could have something to do with sending actual, trained statesmen abroad instead of political cronies. But the BBC and Guardian have both noted how solid the level of information and interpretation are.

We've been caught with our proverbial pants down, but no one is commenting on the quality of what's been revealed.

I stand by my assessment that Wikileaks is committing a crime by publishing some of the documents. There's a long tradition of using stolen documents and sources in journalism -- but they're not journalists. They're simply publishing the unvarnished documents and letting others conduct the actual journalistic chores. It's a fine line, but they've come down on the wrong side of it.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:08 pm

This is a classic spoken word from Henry Rollins on the shooting death of his friend Joe Cole. Starts out funny, but then turns deadly serious. Great stuff. His advice near the end is right on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBRYzMgh ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnDg9h3A ... re=related

Made me think of Robert and Alan Coil.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:21 am

WikiLeaks has divulged a secret list compiled by Washington of key infrastructure sites around the world that could pose a critical danger to US security if they come under terrorist attack.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101206/ts_alt_afp/usdiplomacywikileaks_20101206102522

Assange is now specifically aiding and abetting terrorism by providing a detailed target list and the damages particular strikes will incur. This has gone, in my mind, from questionable, to completely illegal.

Stolen documents put in the hands of an enemy.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:47 am

I agree. It's one thing to expose lies and corruption but this crosses a line. I was with the guy up to this point.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
markabaddon
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:24 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby markabaddon » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:21 am

I feel very conflicted about this Wikileaks situation. On the one hand, some information, such as the government intentionally depressing the number of Iraqi civilian deaths and obscene levels of corruption in the Afghan government are useful to have out there. Others, such as private correspondence between diplomta that could affect international relations, not so much.

One point I did want to follow up on was this: Assange is not a government official. None of these documents were listed as cliassfied and were in the public domain. While I question the wisdom of some of the documents released, such as Barber's mention of a detailed targte list, on the whole I think much of what was done was positive. My overall feeling is that he had the right idea, but went overboard and may very well have crossed a line by providing details on strikes
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:17 am

Reminds me of the "Shopping list for Terrorists" story I did a couple years back while I was dabbling in journalism. The Canadian government keeps a detailed online list of companies and industries that produce "controlled goods", or stuff that might be useful to terrorists. Weapons systems, targeting, scopes, certain chemicals, engines, ordinance, pretty much anything remotely technological. My editors thought it was a much bigger deal than the government did...

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:35 pm

The fact that we care at all about terrorism is a laugh in of itself. We went to war, it increased terrorism. The terrorism actually makes us look like victims. We like that.

RocRizzo
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:19 pm
Location: Rosendale, NY

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:30 pm

FrankChurch wrote:The fact that we care at all about terrorism is a laugh in of itself. We went to war, it increased terrorism. The terrorism actually makes us look like victims. We like that.


We went to war based on a lie. The terrorist plot was merely a catalyst for Bushco, Inc. to attack Iraq, which Junior wanted to do after Hussein insulted his daddy. Cheney made billions on that war. Now Cheney has no heart, just a pump instead, but that's besides the point.

Actually, it was more than likely a ploy for US corporations, who actually run the country, and the world, to usurp the natural resources of the Middle East.
Since the terrorist "threats," they have been able to contain a good portion of the population by means of fear. Nope, I won't fall for it. It was the doings of corporatists.
People for a New American Century, even had a paper that stated that the US needed a "new Pearl Harbor," in order to exploit the resources of the Middle East. It's all about imperialism. Read some of Chomsky's stuff, will ya? It'll teach you a lot about American Imperialism!

If we really cared about terrorists, and wanted to stave off any attacks, we would have taken our troops out of the Muslim Holy Land in Saudi Arabia. That was the stated "reason" why bin Laden attacked the US. No need for all this death, it would have been simple, but NOOOOOO, the US is the Police of the world, and has to have troops in as many countries as possible. Why do we have troops in the Middle East any way, other than to protect the corporate interests there? Please don't tell me it's about Israel, that will only be solved when the Jews there are a minority, which will happen in the next generation or two.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:20 pm

Actually, Roc, Hussein tried to kill his daddy -- but otherwise I agree with your post.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:24 pm

Nah, the Hussein stuff was made up, or so said the NY Times.

Roc, you a truther? I don't want to shun you but if you were I may have to. lol

RocRizzo
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:19 pm
Location: Rosendale, NY

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:01 pm

How did Hussein try to kill Poppy Bush? Did he send people over here to attempt assassination, or was it just a threat?

As far as my status as a "truther," I am not sure that I fall into that catagory totally. Fully 1/3 of NYC residents, many of whom were there believe that they heard multiple explosions. Not including building 7, which was never hit by any planes. I watched them build the WTC from my bedroom as a kid. Those inner girders were quite massive. It was designed to have a 707 (or was it 727) hit it with a full fuel load, and survive. The Empire State Building was hit by a plane and survived. Never before or since has a building caught fire, and come down. It raises some doubt in my mind.

At the Pentagon, pictures soon after the "plane hit" I noticed that there were big wire reels, still standing on end, after the shock wave of the explosion. There were no marks in the building from the wings, nor the engines. This also raised doubt in my mind.

Whether it was let happen on purpose, or made happen on purpose, I do not know. All I know is that Bushco, Inc. was warned, and he failed to heed the warning. He had been talking about attacking Iraq from the beginning of his tenure. Bush Jr.'s ratings were in the toilet, circling the drain. Then there was the PNAC statement.

The evidence in NYC was quickly taken away, steel girders melted down to build a military ship, which prevented any forensics from being done.

The people who were given the task to investigate the incident were cronies of Bushco, Inc., and came up with something that was acceptable to the corporation. There were many holes in the report.

Rather than try to recreate the circumstances of the crash, by computer model, or scale model, the boffins who did this, started with the conclusion, and had to come up with a way that it could happen, given the story line. This is far from scientific if you ask me. You start with the a theory, and draw conclusions after much experimentation. They did things ass backwards.

I don't believe the party line, but I don't expect to see any independent organization come up with a report with no holes, and a group of scientists conduct proper experiments. Not in this lifetime.

If that makes me a truther, so be it. I prefer to be thought of as a person who has real questions about how things were handled with the incident.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:48 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/in ... 062793.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/f ... 5bush2.htm

And this one refutes the assassination attempt with reference to a lack of evidence uncovered in Iraq -- but nonetheless attributes a comment by Bush Jr which contributes to the whole.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/2 ... 93264.html
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:43 pm

Amy Goodman questions one of our envoys on climate change from Cancun:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/7/u ... _questions

Look at how angry he is, how dismissive he is of democracy and questioning power.

At one time this guy was probably an idealistic liberal.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests