Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:27 am

FrankChurch wrote:Typical to see you yanks not even read what they wrote. They are both mainstream liberals and experts on Russia. I cannot say that about you blokes. Doesn't it seem odd that every western state defends your point of view? This is similar to the usual commie bashing blather.


I read the piece Frank. I've also had a great deal of exposure to international politics as well as media bias. I'm not an expert, but I know more than a few.

I could just as well label the people cited as experts in the article as themselves having a political agenda.

But, to put it in its most simplistic terms: Ukraine has not behaved as well as is presented and is far from being solely a victim. However, what the article and your experts ignore is the years of puppet government in the Ukraine, largely controlled by Moscow. This puppet government has been shown to have systematically looted the Ukrainian economy and kept the country in a period of instability.

Russia has invaded and annexed another country';s sovereign territory after expressly guaranteeing that country's borders. Russia has kept the rebels armed, even though they now are shown to be a political minority when it comes to Eastern Ukrainian independence.

What happened to your "voice of the people" and "protect the little guy" approach? Only when it's politically expedient? Ukraine has committed some serious errors, but Putin's attempt -- and your own -- to place blame solely at the feet of the Ukrainian government is painfully lacking credibility when confronted by fact as they can be shown to be. Putin has a two-decade history of increasingly disturbing rhetoric and changes to the Russian Constitution. He has withdrawn rights from his citizens and encroached on foreign soil. This is not the media stating this, these are verified facts. He is overtly manipulating his own press, something you're all to ready to cry foul about when you say it happens here.

You can not justify one side of your story when it vilifies America, and yet claim it to be absolutely valid when it applies to Russia.

Given your own perspective, one must assume Neville Chamberlain had it right regarding Hitler.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby robochrist » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:46 am

I find myself deeply disappointed in "reporters" who do very little more than parrot the ideology they've been given.


But this has been the routine there for a long time. The matter drew lots of recent attention when anchor lady Liz Wahl resigned from the Kremlin-funded English-speaking Russian news channel RT, after another anchor had done likewise earlier, and she accused the network of, in her words, "whitewashing" Moscow's military intervention in Crimea.

Like I was saying before, under Putin this has been common practice in its use of news media. Each year, I believe it is, the Kremlin ostensibly awards "objectivity" in news coverage, but it's nothing but code for hewing to the government line. One of many pressure points Moscow uses to influence the media. These are facts, not my "select" interpretation of sources.

I got some interesting updated info from the eMagazine FP (www.foreignpolicy.com), a division of the Washington Post.

"The media environment in Russia ... is characterized by the use of a pliant judiciary to prosecute independent journalists, impunity for the physical harassment and murder of journalists, and continued state control or influence over almost all traditional media outlets," Freedom House writes in their 2013 report on media freedoms around the world. "Following Vladimir Putin's return to the presidency in May 2012, which was aided by an overwhelming media advantage ahead of the March election, the regime enacted a series of laws that could be used to further restrict media freedom, included a broadly worded measure allowing for the censorship of internet-based content that took effect in November."

What I didn't know about specifically is the Russian government's competing in cyberspace, "in second and third-generation strategies as a means to shape the national information space and promote pro-government political messages and strategies. This approach is consistent with the government’s strategic view of cyberspace that is articulated in strategies such as the doctrine of information security."

Inevitably, like in the U.S., lots of low-information citizens are in the dark.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:56 am

Frank, are you familiar with reporter Vladimir Isachenkov?

He's a highly respected Associated Press reporter specializing in Russia.

His analysis:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-analysis-putin-cornered-over-ukraine-161356582.html
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:14 pm

You mean he has a Russian name?

There is this:

" Putin saw it as a Western plot against Russia and quickly moved to annex Ukraine's Black Sea peninsula of Crimea to head off what he said was the imminent threat of Ukraine joining NATO."

It's not a plot, the west hates Russia, especially the United States, for the usual power reasons. Pretty boring actually.

The United States did promise not to expand NATO, actually they should have disbanded it. Putin has a point.

He also downplays the fact that Ukraine went under a military coup, supported by us. We support coups, think Egypt.

Ukraine is half Russian speakers. Who will protect them?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:20 pm

Neil Kashkari, a california Republican, he goes to Fresno, with 40 bucks in his pocket, to see if he can live. He tried but could not find a job. His solution? The usual GOP bullshit that tanked the economy of Cali.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:38 pm

FrankChurch wrote:You mean he has a Russian name?

There is this:

" Putin saw it as a Western plot against Russia and quickly moved to annex Ukraine's Black Sea peninsula of Crimea to head off what he said was the imminent threat of Ukraine joining NATO."

It's not a plot, the west hates Russia, especially the United States, for the usual power reasons. Pretty boring actually.

The United States did promise not to expand NATO, actually they should have disbanded it. Putin has a point.

He also downplays the fact that Ukraine went under a military coup, supported by us. We support coups, think Egypt.

Ukraine is half Russian speakers. Who will protect them?


That's exactly my point -- you don't look to credentials beyond the superficial. A Russian name is not what gives Isachenkov credibility, a long career at accurately analyzing and reporting on Russia does. As you are so fond of stating, we need to look at the entire picture, not just a little portion of it.

Ukraine underwent a coup, no doubt, but it was not a military one. It was against a demonstrably corrupt leader. Are you saying the coup in Egypt, by the military, was wrong? Muslim Brotherhood's extremism more to your liking?

Who cares what language the Ukrainians speak, or where. Are Asians who don't speak English entitled to have their home countries invade the US to "protect them"? Mexico? Italy? Africa? Of course not, that's an absurd assertion on the face of it.

I have added to my theory about your motivations, Frank. I think you assume the mantel of ANY minority opinion, just to argue the point. This explains what is an often conflicted set of rules and guidelines when evaluating political situations. I'm not meaning to be insulting if it comes across that way, but after years of reading your "experts" and reading your arguments, you expressly oppose anything resembling facts when they conflict with what you feel is an under-represented POV.

There's nothing wrong with it, but you should own it and accept it as part of your motivation. Presenting a contrary view is repeatable, as long as you're honest with your dismissal of qualified references which conflict with that position.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Rick Keeney » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:11 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Why are we ducking the Rabbi.


Did you just make a joke?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:20 pm

When powerful states come together minority opinion tends to be right. A historical current. Think wmd's in Iraq.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:21 pm

Scientists are a minority. Wink.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:25 pm

You don't really think America has pure motives?

Russia is giving Europe their energy and we are economically envious, first admit that?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:30 pm

According to a MIT scientist, the Iron Dome System may not actually work. The reason the rockets don't kill very many? They are shitty.

I do notice Hamas has killed mostly soldiers. You are allowed to kill soldiers in a war, not civilians. Even Joe Scarborough is changing.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:29 pm

FrankChurch wrote:You don't really think America has pure motives?

Russia is giving Europe their energy and we are economically envious, first admit that?


Of course our motives aren't pure, but they are self-serving in a way in which I benefit.

And Russia s selling their energy. Make no mistake, they are in it for pure profit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-oil-and-gas-dependence-chart-2014-7
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:37 pm

When you search for truth remember that it tends to pool down into a minority, at least at first. Everybody thinks the Iraq war was dumb now, but then! Everybody loves Israel until recently. Iran is the most evil place on the planet, but there is now a bit more nuance. Minority opinion shouts from the mine and eventually bubbles up.

---------

Those dangerous tunnels:

http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/07/29/med ... as-terror-

--------

The CIA finally admits it spied on Congressional staffers. O-boy.

--------

Barbara Boxer and others want to arm Israel more? I don't want my taxes giving murder largesse. Joe Scarborough even is seeing that.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:38 pm

How do you benefit? Notice that gas prices are going back up.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:09 pm

Frank your politics leads to you to support many loathsome and repellent characters simply because you perceive them to be opposed to American interests. That seems to be just about all the thought you put into it. The result is there's really no way to have a conversation with you that doesn't consist simply of you making a statement and somebody else telling you you're wrong.

I deeply regret Doug's decision to absent himself from this forum. That bothers me a great deal. I hope it's temporary. (You barely paused in your endless monologue to acknowledge it.) I have no plans to stop posting. But I have to tell you that my responses to you are going to be extremely rare from now onwards. I'm just tired of your true-believerism. You remind me of my cousins and that ain't a compliment.
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