Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FinderDoug
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Wed May 21, 2014 5:09 pm

And your problem, dear Franklin, is that you play loose and fast with the truth and the facts when it suits your argument and have a convenient memory. The hallmark of a great propagandist, but a poor messenger.

Good luck with all your future endeavors, baboo. Back into the filter with you for another year.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed May 21, 2014 5:12 pm

Roberts,

Firstly, I don't see the people beating up on christians here doing a lot of praising of Islam, there or anywhere. However, I take your point.

Secondly, as to doing something about those girls. Special ops? I'm all for it. I think those bastards should be hunted down and capped for plain and simple piracy, kidnapping, and extortion, not to mention promoting misogyny and violating what ought to be a well regarded right---the right to be educated, to know things, regardless of ethnicity or genitalia. However, that wouldn't do much for the underlying problem, which is the persistent, traditional undervaluing of women, not just there but everywhere, to greater and lesser degrees. I have no doubt a bunch of idiots in congress would like to do something like that themselves.

Thirdly, as I said above, I don't care what religion it is that gets lambasted. Criticize one, criticize them all. But if we find a basis of respect for one, then likewise it extends to them all, because people need to believe their woo-woo. Apparently. I used to get such a laugh when I'd read things from the days of the Crusades and later where the priest is haranguing people to turn away from superstition. They said that with a straight face, as if praying to an invisible grandfather figure under threat of eternal hellfire weren't superstition par excellence.

I got no real problem with religion as such until it permeates politics. And I'm gonna stop there, 'cause this belongs in the other thread.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed May 21, 2014 5:14 pm

Robert Nason wrote:Islamic world needs to go through a Reformation and Enlightenment the way its older cousins, and Judaism and Christianity did,


Serious question: when in your opinion was the Judaic Reformation and Enlightenment? Just curious.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby robochrist » Wed May 21, 2014 5:45 pm

Robert - This is why I detest religion. Period. Individuals make up their own minds about the role they'll play as members of the human race - whether they are atheists or believers - but when herd instinct engrafts tradition, superstition, and blind ideology they surrender their judgment and accountability to conscienceless gospel, like lemmings. However insane and horrific their acts, their faith tells them it's right.

As Bill Maher puts it (at the risk of crossing borders with our 'Science V. Religion' space), "All religion is bad shit".

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Wed May 21, 2014 6:32 pm

Mark, the Protestant Reformation ocurred in the 16th century and corrected some of the abuses of the Catholic.Church but instituted some new abuses in their stead. The real changes began to happen in the 18th century, during the Enlightenment, in which America contributed mightily with a constitution that forbade the establishment of a state-sanctioned church. The process continued throughout the 19th and 20th centuries with religion intreasingly having to allow secular values to take precedence in the public, and even private, sphere. The "Jewish Enlightenment" also gathered steam in the 18th and 19th centuries under the leadership of thinkers like Moses Mendelsohn (father of the great composer) and the creation of Reform Judaism in Germany and then America which modernized much of traditional Judaism. There are still Orthodox and Hasidic Jews holding on to the "old ways" (though Hasidism is in fact a relatively modern movement), but they remain a minority, as do fundamentalist Christians; all these fundamentalist groups must nevertheless conform to certain standards of modern civilized behavior (i.e., no stoning "sinners" to death). Obviously you and me and others here would like this process of modernization to go further, but the situation isn't remotely comparable to the Islamic world, where there are states governed by Sharia law and large percentages of the population who agree with Sharia. If only 10% of the world's 1.2 billion Muslims believe in Sharia (and the Jihad necessary to implement it everywhere, that's 120 million people. That's why I say we have a problem. The world is becoming too small and interconnected to pretend it doesn't exist.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed May 21, 2014 6:47 pm

Nason, the muslim world is quite modern, Lebanon being a good example. They used to compare it to Paris. The dictators we have forced on them did a lot against them being reformed. We even helped write their Madrassa handbooks for their children. The late great Mr. Worthy was stellar on Iran and our love affair with the noxious Shah.

If we cared they could reform themselves. There are many democratic forces that could be helped but we would rather have people who will obey and go along with out hegemony and economic system and easier flow with the oil.

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Wed May 21, 2014 6:56 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Nason, the muslim world is quite modern, Lebanon being a good example. They used to compare it to Paris. The dictators we have forced on them did a lot against them being reformed. We even helped write their Madrassa handbooks for their children. The late great Mr. Worthy was stellar on Iran and our love affair with the noxious Shah.

If we cared they could reform themselves. There are many democratic forces that could be helped but we would rather have people who will obey and go along with out hegemony and economic system and easier flow with the oil.


Naturally, in your view, everything wrong with the Muslim world is our fault.

Since Islam was a great civilization before the U.S. existed and when the British were living in caves and painting their faces blue, maybe everything wrong with the West is THEIR fault.

One thing I'll give you, Frank -- you're consistent.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Wed May 21, 2014 7:29 pm

FrankChurch wrote:the muslim world is quite modern, Lebanon being a good example. They used to compare it to Paris.

"Used to" are the operative words here. Until the PLO took up residence in Southern Lebanon in the mid-70s and turned it into an armed mini-state dedicated to destoying Israel. Adieu, Paris.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed May 21, 2014 7:41 pm

Frank, let me chide you here.

You're fond of posting links and saying "look up".

Look up 2006 Hezbollah Israeli War.

Hezbollah, attempting to replace the PLO, launched -- started, began, instigated...whatever word you like -- a cross-border attack on an Israeli site. It was unprovoked, and shook a peaceful and prosperous Beirut back to its foundations.

Read: "Chronic Conflict with Israel

Minor incidents continued between Israel and Hezbollah from 2000 to 2005. Then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon took the chronic strife as the price of living with a hostile frontier, a price not nearly as heavy as the one Israel was paying for its proximity to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Sharon, who had been the architect of the 1982 invasion and lost enormous prestige from that invasion’s ultimate failure, was not about to ratchet up the battle with Hezbollah.

His successor, Ehud Olmert, had different ideas.

The 2006 War

On July 12, 2006, Hezbollah militants fired on an Israeli patrol on Israel’s side of the border fence, killing three Israeli soldiers and seizing two of them. Olmert responded by bombarding parts of south and eastern Lebanon, then widening the bombing campaign to cover most of Lebanon in what became a 34-day all-out war between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah retaliated with intense, daily, indiscriminate missile barrages at towns in northern Israel, and as far south as Haifa.
Olmert pledged to destroy Hezbollah’s military capacity. Hezbollah pledged not to stop its barrage until Israel ceased its operations, which included widespread incursions into south Lebanon.

It wasn’t until Aug. 14 that a cease-fired brokered by the United Nations ended hostilities. About 1,000 people, mostly Lebanese civilians, were killed, and 1 million Lebanese civilians and some 300,000 to 400,000 Israelis temporarily displaced. Both countries’ economies suffered, although Lebanon’s suffered far more as much of its infrastructure—roads, bridges, electricity and water plants—were damaged by Israel’s bombing campaign."

This is from Ask.com, written by Pierre Tristam. You may get his Bona fides here: http://middleeast.about.com/bio/Pierre-Tristam-28362.htm

If Tristam's account doesn't stir you, tv show host (and chef) was there when Hezbollah struck. Read his account of Hezbollah's actions and the destruction of Beirut as a result.

"Anthony Bourdain: I can only tell you what I saw in my limited experience. As it happened, I was standing with a Sunni, Shiite and a Christian when Hezbollah supporters started to fire automatic weapons in the air celebrating the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers as a few supporters drove by the three people I was with all instantaneously took on a look of shame and embarrassment as if a dangerous and unstable little brother had once again brought the whole family into peril. At no time during my 10 days in Beirut did I ever hear an anti-Semitic or even explicitly anti-Israeli statement. To the contrary, there was a universal sense of grim resignation and inevitability to what Israel's reaction would be. Dating to the first seconds after Hezbollah started firing in the air, we were a largely Jewish crew. The last person to leave us as Lebanese fled in droves, was the Shiite from south Beirut. We had to plead with him to leave us and join his family. His house was later destroyed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/07/25/DI2006072501108.html

Your beloved Hezbollah destroyed Beirut by attacking Israel and hiding among civilians. Accounts from people who were there.

You'll have lots of reasons why-why-why Hezbollah were just poor innocents, but I'll call bullshit before you type the first letter.
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Kenneth Stevens
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Kenneth Stevens » Wed May 21, 2014 9:52 pm

Christ on a minibike, as my old man use to say. I swore off the Pavilion several years ago, but Frank Church's contention that "the Muslim world is quite modern, Lebanon being a good example" compels me briefly to return.

Frank, Lebanon is not a good example of Islamic modernity. In fact, you managed to pick an example that demonstrates exactly the opposite of the point that you thought you were making.

In the first half of the Twentieth Century, Lebanon was indeed referred to quite often as the "Switzerland of the Middle East," but if you had ever bothered to learn even the most basic facts about that country, then you would know that AT THAT TIME it was also majority Christian, NOT Muslim.

Then, due to high Muslim birthrates, in the nineteen-sixties the demographic balance of Lebanon tipped from majority Christian to majority Muslim, destabilizing the precarious ethnic and religious balance there. As is so often the case (Kosovo being Exhibit A), this set the stage for the civil war that followed.

A lot of people here seem to think that Frank plays fast and loose with the facts, but this is giving him far too much credit. Thanks to the willful ignorance that bounds his intellectual life the way that prison walls and razor wire do a convict's existence, he simply does not know what the facts are, nor can he be bothered to learn them. (So lacking in self-awareness is Frank that he cannot grasp that this is the very reason that he has been unsuccessful in getting even one of the newly de-lurked posters to visit this place.)

Okay, I've said my piece and am leaving again. I hope the rest of you enjoy being lectured on anarchism by someone who's never even read anything by Bakunin or Kropoktin more than I do.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Thu May 22, 2014 6:08 am

A lot of people here seem to think that Frank plays fast and loose with the facts, but this is giving him far too much credit.
Nah. That was just my last stab at being polite before setting phpbb to filter his posts from my view again. My honest assessment would have made unhappy work for Steve.

Sometimes, a little self-censorship supports the common good.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu May 22, 2014 7:10 am

And is sincerely appreciated by others.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Thu May 22, 2014 8:06 am

Hard enough to herd cats without someone tossing a box of mice into the mix.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu May 22, 2014 8:50 am

Israel attacks Lebanon and Hizbollah fights back, pretty standard, unless you want the muslims to just let Israel bomb anyone they like.

You forget the 1982 incursion that started it all--remember, then, no Hizbollah.

Robert Fisk is the go-to guy on Lebanon, since he actually lives there and understands the people and culture.

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Doug supports media filters so it figures. :lol:

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Barber, where you at now?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu May 22, 2014 8:52 am

Kenneth, ya tea party pawtna.

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The media meme is simple, almost childishly so--if you are debating war and peace a peace supporter should be at one end of the debate, not just a dove and a hawk trading tongues.


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