Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:31 pm

And finally, we did not import Nazis to work on our war machine. That's blatantly bigoted and prejudiced.

We "imported" German scientists because, as is well known, they had built a vast war machine and created technological innovations we found useful. Yes, we used their knowledge, but many of those scientists worked for the Nazis out of threats of death, not out of ideological purity.

Get your history straight and stop lumping all people together in bigoted clumps. You argue vehemently against other people doing it and then do it yourself (see also: all Frank's statements regarding Israel for Exhibit #2...damned Jews).
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:23 pm

From the department of better late than never:

Thank you Frank. A response was all I wanted.

I can't agree with you.

From what I can gather, what worries you most seems to be to imposition of Victor's Justice. But at no point do you say what proper justice would have looked like in that case. In fact, I don't see any mention of Japanese crimes in your posts.

You do realize the Japanese were not innocent? They started the war, both in China and against the West. They behaved abominably in Nanking and Bataan and Hong Kong and everywhere they went. They conducted medical experiments on large numbers of Koreans, and many of the doctors were let off scot-free. Something like a third of their prisoners of war starved in captivity in contravention of the Geneva convention (which they refused to recognize). Someone needed to be punished.

I've mentioned before that I've spoken to a man who endured Japanese captivity. I would not have liked to look him in the eye and tell him that his captors "got no justice" - he would have asked why the guard who beat and starved him for years on end shouldn't have been hanged for it. He did wonder where the justice was in Japan going on to become one of the world's most prosperous economies, and why so many of his countrymen insisted on driving Japanese cars (thank god I drove a Ford at the time. . .)

Someone needed to be punished.

As for the "Japanese generals got hung for crimes their soldiers committed, even if they had no power over them," I shed no tears. Generals are responsible for their troops. And few generals had more power over their troops than the Japanese. It's not as if they were under strict orders to be nice to their prisoners and subjects. . .

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:50 am

It's debatable that "punishment" according to Western norms would have meant much to the Japanese. As Steve E. points out, Japan did not sign onto the Geneva Convention (nor did we, for that matter, for a long time, even though we conformed to its standards). The Japanese were up front about their attitude and comported themselves according to their own cultural and traditional standards. Prisoners of war, for one thing, were not subject in Japanese tradition to any kind of civil treatment as the act of being captured indicated a subhuman condition---prisoners were first and foremost cowards. The Japanese could not see that they owed these people anything.

Likewise in their treatment of conquered peoples. The mindset was completely different. What exactly were they violating other than a standard they categorically did not accept? As I say, this is arguable, but it is there.

However, Germany came from a different tradition and gave continued lip service to those traditions throughout the war. Punishment for them meant something. No one was baffled, least of all those being hanged.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:49 am

The "damned jews" comment was really offensive, Barber. You know my stance is against the nation state of Israel, not jews. Unless you are saying that jews are holy and that they cannot also be as bad as nazis. That would say that germans are half-breeds, as well as the Japanese, who went from being fearsome and loathsome to being peaceful.

We all have the capacity for evil, jews, catholics, Palestinians, Arabs, chinese, even Canadians.

----------

Barber, so, Klaus Barbie was not a nazi?

We did train latin American death squads, who were nazis. My only stance is that America is not a holy state. We cut away the cancer and I'm patriot city.
'm

zackm
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:35 am

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby zackm » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:28 pm

I'd argue about the whole "evil" thing. How about "we all have the capacity to act objectionably..."?

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:42 am

FrankChurch wrote: We all have the capacity for evil, jews, catholics, Palestinians, Arabs, chinese, even Canadians.

----------



Alas:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... _says.html

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:44 am

Mark Tiedemann wrote:It's debatable that "punishment" according to Western norms would have meant much to the Japanese.


Probably not, but it meant a great deal to their victims.

Someone once said a long time ago "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." It's never been truer than with the Japanese.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:48 am

Because of endless punishment of the Muslim people by US interests, it makes sense that Americans would die by the sword in the smoldering twin towers.

See, how that logic doesn't work when we mention Americans but it is ok when speaking of Japanese. At the time we called them Japs.

During Vietnam we called the NLF Viet Cong, a racist term, or gooks. Best that we be outraged when anybody uses violence for nefarious ends, especially power hungry imperial states. We cannot just implicate Rome and act like we learned since then.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:50 am

I hate to bring up the obvious, guys, but the best critics of Israel are jewish.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:38 pm

And here I was thinking a biblical quote would get the point across. . .

Tim Raven
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:30 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Tim Raven » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:40 pm

(Post removed by moderator as a personal attack)

Tim Raven

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:37 am

Ahem:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/2 ... 70767.html

----------

Project Paperclip imported nazis. If you work for Hitler you are a fucking nazi.

We also used them to undermine the leftist struggle against fascism in Italy.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:51 pm

The video that started it all. Leaked by Bradley Manning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0I6S8mva-s

No, the US is fine.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:06 pm

I posted this a ways back but I don't think Mark Tiedemann was here to see it. He might like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0EaYqPfK_k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OYtO3M7xI

----------

These ones are for my Ezra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMTupcRri-c

Is this his twin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqWUxbh2UY

How's Iraq going there, Ez?

Talibani aint the Prez.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:24 pm

These ones are for my Ezra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMTupcRri-c

Is this his twin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqWUxbh2UY

How's Iraq going there, Ez?

Talibani aint the Prez.


Yes both Hitchens are the same man. That you will never ever be able to understand it testifies more to your limitations than Hitchens'.

What is happening in Iraq is very sad. Does that make you happy Frank? Give you some sense of satisfaction? Try not to gloat too much.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests