Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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zackm
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby zackm » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:56 pm

Do we know if her book deal is related to the trial? What if she wrote a nice little children's book about a inquisitive chinchilla named Gimlet who goes on a Christian-friendly adventure? Frank, would you really want Gimlet's story to remain untold just because of some nasty old trial?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:32 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I said that there are no actual democracies in the entire world.


No, what you said was:

FrankChurch wrote:Afghanistan and Iraq used to be highly democratic. Imperialism is the germ that fucks the wheat.


And that is wrong. Generically applauding Democratic reforms is like saying you're happy a man is no longer beating his children, if only he'd stop beating his wife. But even that goes further than the truth. You didn't say either.

You said, and I cut and paste, that "Afghanistan and Iraq used to be highly democratic" -- which is highly inaccurate.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:13 am

FrankChurch wrote:Hate to sound like Farrakhan, but when Egypt had civilizations white folk were in caves.

Afghanistan and Iraq used to be highly democratic. Imperialism is the germ that fucks the wheat.



The first statement is relevant to nothing.

The second statement, if it were ever true, is like saying Hellenistic Greece was democratic. Athens had a democratic institution, but it was only for a very few. It was not democracy in any way that we would recognize today.

You should read Roberto Calasso's The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony. It has more than a few observations about so called democracy and egalitarianism that might be useful in understanding even our current political malaise.

You keep trying to impose modern interpretations on things that only resemble what you're talking about superficially.

China had civilization between anything in Europe got its act together, but I wouldn't hold it up as an example to follow.

And what, prithee, does race have to do with it?

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:45 am

I misread Slavoj Zizek who said that Afghanistan was highly secular, not democratic. I used the wrong term. Secular.

I'm in the dipshit box. lol

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:58 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I misread Slavoj Zizek who said that Afghanistan was highly secular, not democratic. I used the wrong term. Secular.

I'm in the dipshit box. lol


Ah. Well, even that is too broad to credit. The folks you keep railing about here, the elites, were secular, but not the average Afghani.

Having just finished Khaled Hosseini's new novel, And the Mountains Echoed, and a number of other things over the years---articles mostly---I've come to the conclusion that the expatriates bemoaning the loss of a country like Afghanistan are pining away for something that never existed except in moments of distorted nostalgia. That Country never existed in practice. I think it is fair to say that Afghanistan has only ever been a geographic idea with a dominant ruling class that did nothing to advance a common identity among what was essentially a collection of tribes and small communities that just happened to exist within that boundary.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:38 am

I'd love to wonder why you all are so angry at the enlightenment.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:46 am

FrankChurch wrote:I'd love to wonder why you all are so angry at the enlightenment.


Well that came out of left field (naturally). Pray, expound? I'm not in the least angry with the Enlightenment.

Of course, I have to wonder to which one you refer...

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:49 am

You all don't care much for the commons, a standard belief in enlightenment thinking. That collective rights are higher than individual.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:12 pm

FrankChurch wrote:You all don't care much for the commons, a standard belief in enlightenment thinking. That collective rights are higher than individual.


Collective rights must be based on individual rights, otherwise you start sacrificing the square pegs for the greater good of the round holes.

Besides, a great deal of Enlightenment political thought (see Locke) was about the importance and near-sanctity of personal property.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:00 pm

Besides, a great deal of Enlightenment political thought (see Locke) was about the importance and near-sanctity of personal property.


This coming from the man who wants me to give up my rights to my artistic property seems just a little more than a bit hypocritical.

You really do have a lot of nerve Frank. I have problems with the way you choose to interpret the Enlightment. That is a huge step away from having problems with the philosophy of the Enlightment.

I respectfully request you learn that.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:03 pm

FrankChurch wrote:You all don't care much for the commons, a standard belief in enlightenment thinking. That collective rights are higher than individual.


You've read something somewhere and have expanded the scope, I can tell. Mark is exactly right that the commons was only a small aspect of the overall Enlightenment, and based primarily on the fundamental right for everyone to have a bible. Property was deeply respected and theft highly discouraged. Sometimes fatally.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:49 am

Lori Koonce wrote:
Besides, a great deal of Enlightenment political thought (see Locke) was about the importance and near-sanctity of personal property.


This coming from the man who wants me to give up my rights to my artistic property seems just a little more than a bit hypocritical.

You really do have a lot of nerve Frank. I have problems with the way you choose to interpret the Enlightment. That is a huge step away from having problems with the philosophy of the Enlightment.

I respectfully request you learn that.


Respectfully, Lori, Frank didn't say that, I did in reply to Frank. I don't want you to give up anything.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:37 am

Frank, you have a lot of nerve being for freedom. Bad Frank.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:39 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Frank, you have a lot of nerve being for freedom. Bad Frank.


Well, as they say, your freedom ends at the tip of my nose.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:18 am

Unless your name is Trayvon. You knew I was going there.


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